How Are The Mighty Fallen

[Jeff Leahy]

Excellent, excellent, every field should have it’s pantomime horse .

[jason_c]

Some posters on here seem to think that us "pro-Anderson" posters rely solely on Begg and Fido for our views on Anderson. Personally I had not take much notice of Begg's or Fido's comments. I am pro Anderson for two main reasons.

1 If what Anderson says about the Ripper is true then we have a slight chance of "solving" the case. If it wasnt Kosminski then we have no chance of discovering the culprit.

2 Anderson is such an easy target for modern writers. He was a devout Christian, Unionist, anti-republican, anti-socialist and anti-modernist. Attacking Anderson is like shooting fish in a barrel.

[Stewart P Evans]

Solve

Some posters on here seem to think that us "pro-Anderson" posters rely solely on Begg and Fido for our views on Anderson. Personally I had not take much notice of Begg's or Fido's comments. I am pro Anderson for two main reasons.
1 If what Anderson says about the Ripper is true then we have a slight chance of "solving" the case. If it wasnt Kosminski then we have no chance of discovering the culprit.
2 Anderson is such an easy target for modern writers. He was a devout Christian, Unionist, anti-republican, anti-socialist and anti-modernist. Attacking Anderson is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Let's get one thing straight right away. It is not possible to solve this case. You can only arrive at what you feel is your own preferred solution - if that's Anderson and his Polish Jew, then fine.

Anderson is no more an easy target than many other men, and police officers, of his day. That does not mean that a biased and one-sided view of him has to be accepted. Objectivity and common sense are what is required.

[Jeff Leahy]

Let's get one thing straight right away. It is not possible to solve this case. You can only arrive at what you feel is your own preferred solution - if that's Anderson and his Polish Jew, then fine.

Anderson is no more an easy target than many other men, and police officers, of his day. That does not mean that a biased and one-sided view of him has to be accepted. Objectivity and common sense are what is required.

Hi Stewart

I totally agree with what your saying!

My objection was to the implication, by other posters. that Begg had claimed Anderson would NOT lie.

Not only has Paul never claimed this, but he has quite clearly stated that he believes Anderson would ‘lie’ in certain circumstance based on Martin’s assessment.

Your difference of opinion, which is not only fair enough but necessary and thought provoking, seems to be about ‘balance’.

I’m fairly certain Paul would not consider himself in either a pro or Anti camp.

I certainly would never consider myself in a pro Anderson camp, my Nan was a Parnell! And I have always spoken for and believed in an independent Ireland.

Yours Pirate

[caz]

I am sure that you 'couldn't care less what Simon chose to post' and that said I am surprised that you joined in. Simon may not have expected the Spanish Inquisition and maybe he is old and ugly (like me) but rather than putting off people who contribute new information with vitriolic responses, perhaps a measured response, even measured criticism, would be better. And if you don't watch out I'll be getting the comfy chair out.

Hi Stewart,

I joined in because I know how you love a sound spanking from Ally and me, followed by Nats making soothing noises and applying the baby lotion.

Now lean over that comfy chair you naughty boy.

Love,

Caz
X

[jason_c]

Let's get one thing straight right away. It is not possible to solve this case. You can only arrive at what you feel is your own preferred solution - if that's Anderson and his Polish Jew, then fine.

Anderson is no more an easy target than many other men, and police officers, of his day. That does not mean that a biased and one-sided view of him has to be accepted. Objectivity and common sense are what is required.

Let's get one thing straight. I deliberately wrote solved in "quotation" marks. I do not expect a smoking gun. I simply hold out further information which could point to the guilt of Kosminski (or a Kosminski type).

Anderson is no more an easy target than many other men, and police officers, of his day? We will have to disagree on that. His position alone meant he made many enemies in his time, both public and private.

btw you should read back at some of the criticisms of his religious and social beliefs on various threads and then tell me he is no more an easy target than others.

[Natalie Severn]

40 pages devoted to Anderson in The Facts

Hi Stewart,

I joined in because I know how you love a sound spanking from Ally and me, followed by Nats making soothing noises and applying the baby lotion.

Now lean over that comfy chair you naughty boy.

Love,

Caz
X

No Caz, you have me wrong.I was making a serious point about the great hullabaloo that has gone on some twenty years or so about Anderson"s veracity and so on. I reckon it takes us away from the real world to have to accept all this guesswork from people who never met him . The hard facts speak very differently about Anderson"s character .His career choice as a spymaster and master of disinformation ; the statements made about him in the House of Commons by Winston Churchill among others ,following his confession in April 1910 about the papers he authored defaming Parnell in The Times of 1887 .These are to take but two instances but there are many which reveal this man"s true colours.
Moreover, Paul Begg cannot be said to be objective about Anderson.Not really.

Lets take a look now at one quick way to measure this :

Take a count of pages allotted to each police suspect ever mentioned as being worthy of serious consideration in Paul's fairly recent and otherwise informative, balanced and erudite book, "Jack the Ripper ,The Facts " we have the following:

The reader will find forty pages devoted to Kosminski!!


Now compare this 40 pages with , the 26 on Tumblety ; the eleven on Druitt; the ten on Ostrog ; just two to George Chapman/Klosowski and [B] thirty one pages in total on all other suspects .

So Caz, "parity of information " per suspect doesnt really figure does it .
why ? Especially as this book claims to present, presumably objectively, only "The Facts".
Which facts about whom ?

Best
Norma

[Tom_Wescott]

Things I've learned from this thread so far

1) That Paul Begg is the "great wizard"

2) That Stewart Evans is impressed with Simon Wood's "track record", which is most notable for his rebuttal against Stephen Knight's theory in the 70's, his invention of the 'FM' on Kelly's wall, which unintentionally shows the Maybrick Diary to be a modern hoax, and more recently for attempting to prove that Tumblety was not a real Ripper suspect.

3) That Begg is neither pro nor anti-Anderson.

4) That Ally has the power to ban people.

5) That Pirate Jack can be banned by the almighty Ally, but return for more mayhem.

6) That the hope of solving this case lies only in Kosminski or someone like him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stewart P Evans]

Tempting

Hi Stewart,
I joined in because I know how you love a sound spanking from Ally and me, followed by Nats making soothing noises and applying the baby lotion.
Now lean over that comfy chair you naughty boy.
Love,
Caz
X

That sounds very tempting... but you are right, us old boys need putting in our place once in a while.

[Ally]

1) That Paul Begg is the "great wizard"

And just like the "great wizard" he sends a little girl to do his dirty work.

2) That Stewart Evans is impressed with Simon Wood's "track record", which is most notable for his rebuttal against Stephen Knight's theory in the 70's, his invention of the 'FM' on Kelly's wall, which unintentionally shows the Maybrick Diary to be a modern hoax, and more recently for attempting to prove that Tumblety was not a real Ripper suspect.

I know. I am still reeling.

3) That Begg is neither pro nor anti-Anderson.

And we all believe that.

4) That Ally has the power to ban people.

Like seriously. Pay me my freaking due or you will be the next one to fall. Mwah hah hah.

5) That Pirate Jack can be banned by the almighty Ally, but return for more mayhem.

Why do people think that if I banned someone I would ever allow them to return? Do I seem all forgiving and, dare I say it, christian? I am really going to have to work on my image.

6) That the hope of solving this case lies only in Kosminski or someone like him.

God has spoken. The case will never be solved. Read five posts up.

[Stewart P Evans]

Suspect

Let's get one thing straight. I deliberately wrote solved in "quotation" marks. I do not expect a smoking gun. I simply hold out further information which could point to the guilt of Kosminski (or a Kosminski type).
Anderson is no more an easy target than many other men, and police officers, of his day? We will have to disagree on that. His position alone meant he made many enemies in his time, both public and private.
btw you should read back at some of the criticisms of his religious and social beliefs on various threads and then tell me he is no more an easy target than others.

No, it's all about whom you feel is the best suspect. And make no mistake, suspect is all you'll ever have.

I suggest that you look back over the published record and see what has been said about Charles Warren, Henry Smith, Henry Matthews, Melville Macnaghten and many others. I would venture to suggest that I have read more about Anderson than you ever have.

[Stewart P Evans]

Simon

...
2) That Stewart Evans is impressed with Simon Wood's "track record", which is most notable for his rebuttal against Stephen Knight's theory in the 70's, his invention of the 'FM' on Kelly's wall, which unintentionally shows the Maybrick Diary to be a modern hoax, and more recently for attempting to prove that Tumblety was not a real Ripper suspect.
...
Tom Wescott

Of course I don't agree with many things that Simon has said, nor him with me. That doesn't alter the fact that we both come from a certain era, have a common interest shared for many years and he's a dear old boy. (I mustn't mention the fact that he has just inducted me into the secretive cabal that entitles me to the letters O.A.R. after my name, oh dear I did!).

Stewart P Evans O.A.R.

[Jeff Leahy]

1) That Paul Begg is the "great wizard"

Ah yes, the ‘GREAT' 'Great' 'WIZARD’

2) That Stewart Evans is impressed with Simon Wood's "track record", which is most notable for his rebuttal against Stephen Knight's theory in the 70's, his invention of the 'FM' on Kelly's wall, which unintentionally shows the Maybrick Diary to be a modern hoax, and more recently for attempting to prove that Tumblety was not a real Ripper suspect.

Yes I to am bemused by Simons track record? He does appear to have come up with some fairly bizarre stuff in the last year. However the "Great wizard" has told me to pay respect as sometimes he apparently comes up with the odd gem?

3) That Begg is neither pro nor anti-Anderson.

This is simply a statement of FACT

4) That Ally has the power to ban people.

Oh come on TOM, we all know who runs decisions in Admin. The fact that there are those in admin who wish to have an excuse to ban my posts is hardly new territory? Especially given the large number of threats in my PM box?

5) That Pirate Jack can be banned by the almighty Ally, but return for more mayhem.

Yes I love this , you also?

6) That the hope of solving this case lies only in Kosminski or someone like him.

I’d take that seriously if I were you TOM?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I am slowly becoming a Tom Wescott FAN! Caz please whip my bottom!

[Natalie Severn]

Sure. Being an expert in Victorian Literature doesn't give one a special magical window into the soul of a man who lived during that time. It does not qualify one to make judgments on which situations a man would or would not tell lies. Martin's opinion that Anderson wouldn't tell lies to increase his own reputation is an opinion of no more weight than anyone else's. He has absolutely NO idea what situations Anderson would or would not have lied in, and he could have degrees in every single facet of Victorian life and it still would not make him more able to judge the character of a single, unique individual in that period than the average lay person. Anderson told lies. We know this. We cannot parse it out and say oh, he never would have lied in this situation...we don't know for the simple reason that none of us, Martin included, knew the man. And even if we had actually KNOWN the man, people have a way of surprising you with what they are willing to do to increase and protect their own precious reputations.




That's all right (alright) Paul owes quite a few of us apologies as well, so we'll just call us even.

Brilliant!

[Jeff Leahy]

Brilliant!

Then perhaps Norma you would like to explain to everyone precisely where Martin Fido got it wrong?

It should be an interesting essay as even the 'Begg' has declined to do so?

Pirate