brave, brave Sir Rob[ert]

[lynn cates]

Hello. I'd like to see a discussion about Sir Robert in conjunction with the letter found by Mr. Ryder in the Duke University collection.

In particular, I'd like to know if anyone thinks it is possible that the "woman of good family's" plea, transmitted by Crawford, could have had a psychological effect on Sir Robert so that, unwittingly, it "coloured" his thinking vis-a-vis his choice of suspects.

This is in no way to cast aspersions on Mr. Anderson's character. I will assume he was both honest and brave.

To be very precise: I am thinking about a dilemma, sometimes taken up by Act Utilitarian ethicists, along the lines that, if 2 people are accused of a crime, and there is no certainty about which is guilty, why not blame the one whose "memory" stands to lose less. It is an outcome of their "Greatest Happiness Principle."

LC

[Roy Corduroy]

...the "woman of good family's" plea, transmitted by Crawford...

Hi Lynn,

The Crawford letter didn't say that.

Roy

[lynn cates]

implication

Hello. That's true. It was Mr. Ryder's implication, based on social circles.

LC

[Chris]

Hello. That's true. It was Mr. Ryder's implication, based on social circles.

Unfortunately the Emily Druitt who was associated with Bernard Quaritch turned out not to be a close relation of Montague Druitt, but a member of a different Druitt family. I've always felt that the language of the letter points to someone in humbler circumstances, probably living in the East End.

[lynn cates]

conjecture and conjecture

Hello. It was never stated that MJD's family contacted Crawford. That was only conjecture. Still, it is not clear why Sir Robert kept the letter.

I wonder how a Whitechapel family could be in peril? Ryder's conjecture was that "peril' was something like loss of face.

LC

[ChrisGeorge]

Unfortunately the Emily Druitt who was associated with Bernard Quaritch turned out not to be a close relation of Montague Druitt, but a member of a different Druitt family. I've always felt that the language of the letter points to someone in humbler circumstances, probably living in the East End.

Hi Chris

I believe the link has been made, Chris, but maybe relatively recently, by Andrew Spallek. In the last issue of Ripperologist, No. 106, September 2009, in his article, "Sifting The Druitt Archives", about the extensive Druitt family papers at the West Sussex Record Office in Chichester, Andrew wrote:

"As a final note, allow me simply to say that there are other interesting 'finds' in the archives. Correspondence between Gertrude and East End stonemason Jabez Druitt links these families at the very time of the Whitechapel murders. This is significant in that Jabez had a daughter by the name of Emily, who had indirect ties to the Earl of Crawford. Researcher Stephen Ryder has discovered a letter from Crawford to Sir Robert Anderson regarding an unnamed woman who believed she was related to Jack the Ripper. Could this woman be Emily Druitt?"

Hello. It was never stated that MJD's family contacted Crawford. That was only conjecture. Still, it is not clear why Sir Robert kept the letter.

I wonder how a Whitechapel family could be in peril? Ryder's conjecture was that "peril' was something like loss of face.

LC

Lynn, they could have felt nervous about being physically harm to persons or property by a relative they deemed unstable.

All the best

Chris

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello. Thanks! That's a sensible explanation.

LC

[Chris]

Unfortunately the Emily Druitt who was associated with Bernard Quaritch turned out not to be a close relation of Montague Druitt, but a member of a different Druitt family.

I believe the link has been made, Chris, but maybe relatively recently, by Andrew Spallek. In the last issue of Ripperologist, No. 106, September 2009, in his article, "Sifting The Druitt Archives", about the extensive Druitt family papers at the West Sussex Record Office in Chichester, Andrew wrote:

"As a final note, allow me simply to say that there are other interesting 'finds' in the archives. Correspondence between Gertrude and East End stonemason Jabez Druitt links these families at the very time of the Whitechapel murders. This is significant in that Jabez had a daughter by the name of Emily, who had indirect ties to the Earl of Crawford. Researcher Stephen Ryder has discovered a letter from Crawford to Sir Robert Anderson regarding an unnamed woman who believed she was related to Jack the Ripper. Could this woman be Emily Druitt?"

Andy posted details of the correspondence between Jabez and Gertrude in July last year on this thread:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1057

These letters make it clear that they knew of no relationship between their families (though there may have been a distant one, as Jabez had been told his ancestors came from Winchester).

The tenor of the Crawford letter suggests that the suspect was still alive when it was written, but at the time of Montague's death these letters show Jabez and Gertrude in occasional formal correspondence about genealogical matters. It seems inconceivable that any suspicions on the part of the Druitts would have been confided to Jabez, and that his daughter would have conveyed them to the police, claiming to be "nearly related" to Montague.

[Chris]

I wonder how a Whitechapel family could be in peril? Ryder's conjecture was that "peril' was something like loss of face.

Personally I feel the most natural interpretation is that the woman was afraid she and her family would be in danger from the local population if it became known that her relation was suspected of being the Ripper.

At the height of the hysteria on the weekend of Chapman's murder, the whole Jewish population of Whitechapel was under threat because of the prevailing belief that the killer was Jewish. Pizer himself said at the inquest that he had stayed in hiding around that time because he feared being "torn to pieces" if he emerged.

Such a fear would account for the woman's insistence on complete anonymity in her dealings with Crawford and Anderson.

Just one other point - perhaps not too much significance should be attached to the fact of the letter's survival. In his essay on the letter, Stephen Ryder wrote "As this is the only letter within his entire surviving correspondence having anything to do whatsoever with the Whitechapel murders, one might assume that this item held particular significance for Mr. Anderson". But in view of the following statement by his son, the letter's survival probably didn't owe anything to any special significance it held for Anderson:

"My father seems hardly ever to have destroyed a letter ; and after his death, when a five-storey house was being exchanged for a moderate-sized fiat, the family were confronted with a problem indeed. I got back to London from South Africa early in 1919 to find the available members wrestling with it ; the quotations given in this memoir are taken from only a few of the letters which were preserved."

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.apmoore.4.html

[ChrisGeorge]

Personally I feel the most natural interpretation is that the woman was afraid she and her family would be in danger from the local population if it became known that her relation was suspected of being the Ripper.

That's conceivable that Emily and her family (or whomever it was, if it was not the Druitt family) would be in danger from the local population if it became known that her relation was suspected of being the Ripper. Thanks for that, Chris.

There did not have to be any close blood link between the Whitechapel Druitts and South coast Druitts for Jabez and Emily Druitt to be concerned about Montague, although it must remain hypothetical about whether Emily contacted Anderson through Lord Crawford as Stephen Ryder thought might have been possible. The main thing is that there was communication between the two sets of Druitts--though, as you say, apparently only about genealogical matters between Jabez and Gertrude.

Chris

[lynn cates]

access

Hello. But would a local resident, in such fear, have access to Crawford?

LC

[Chris]

There did not have to be any close blood link between the Whitechapel Druitts and South coast Druitts for Jabez and Emily Druitt to be concerned about Montague, although it must remain hypothetical about whether Emily contacted Anderson through Lord Crawford as Stephen Ryder thought might have been possible.

I really don't see how that could have been the case, considering that the Whitechapel murderer was "supposed to be nearly related" to the woman who contacted Anderson. Jabez's daughter Emily was definitely not "nearly related" to Montague.

Stephen Ryder's original suggestion, of course, was that Montague's first cousin Emily might have been the woman concerned. She would have been "nearly related" to Montague, but unfortunately it turned out that she was not the Emily Druitt who was associated with Bernard Quaritch.

[Chris]

But would a local resident, in such fear, have access to Crawford?

I think that, coupled with the question of why the woman would have turned to Crawford in particular for advice, is the crucial problem.

One suggestion is that there could be some connection with Crawford's membership of the House of Lords Select Committee on the Sweating System in 1888.

But in any case, since Crawford writes that the woman's "name is unknown to me", we know that she wasn't someone who was already acquainted with him.

[Victor]

the Whitechapel murderer was "supposed to be nearly related" to the woman who contacted Anderson. Jabez's daughter Emily was definitely not "nearly related" to Montague.

Hi Chris,

It depends whether you interpret "nearly related" as meaning "closely related" or "close to being related".

KR,
Vic.

[Chris]

It depends whether you interpret "nearly related" as meaning "closely related" or "close to being related".

What do you mean by "close to being related"? How could she be "nearly - but not quite - related"?