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  • Foreign Police methods

    I am starting a thread for this also, even though it has been discussed before.

    In September 1894 he had stated in the Evening News and Post:

    "You should understand that the Scotland Yard method must always differ widely from the French method, because our law is so entirely different in these matters to that of France.

    "For instance," said Mr. Anderson, using our representative as the corpus vile on which to illustrate this difference in the system of the two countries, "you are walking along the streets of Paris, and are merely suspected as a criminal who has been in the hands of the Police on a previous occasion. The evidence against you may be of the flimsiest possible character - there may really be none at all - but you are seized all the same, and at once subjected to a searching scrutiny at the hands of the Police. Your measurements are taken, your finger-prints, etc., examined, and you are not released until the authorities have satisfied themselves that they have made a mistake. Such a method is repugnant to British law and feeling.

    "Here we cannot drag you to Scotland Yard and examine you in this summary fashion. If there is good reason to suspect you of being a criminal all that can be done is to charge you before a magistrate, and if the charge fails there is no way by which you can be subjected to examination for purposes of identification. We can only use our albums against you if you are remanded..."



    In 1911 in The Police Encyclopedia, Anderson wrote, “if our London ‘detectives’ possessed the powers, and might have recourse to the methods, of Foreign Police Forces, [the Whitechapel murderer] would have been brought to justice.”

    RH
    Last edited by robhouse; 01-14-2009, 01:28 AM.

  • #2
    Specifically, I am curious what Anderson meant by the statement "We can only use our albums against you if you are remanded.." What does he mean by "use our albums against you"?

    Thanks for any help with this.

    Rob House

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    • #3
      Albums = police records, Rob.

      Cheers,

      Graham
      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Graham, but can you expand on that a bit. Remanded means to be taken into custody... is Anderson saying that the police could not (forcibly?) arrest a suspect unless they were prepared to charge him in court?

        As far as the albums (assuming this means "police records")... does this imply that the police would build up a file (a police record) on a suspect (containing evidence etc) without actually being able to arrest or question him?

        I feel a bit embarrassed that I am still unclear on all this... but if so, that seems like a real problem for the police.

        Comment


        • #5
          I assume that what Anderson means is that in France if the police saw and recognised someone with a record - previous 'form' - they could pinch him purely on suspicion of being up to no good and use his record against him, whereas in the UK the person had to be actually arrested and charged with a crime, and then placed on remand (i.e., either in custody or on bail) before his or her record could be used against him or her.

          I think.

          Graham
          We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

          Comment


          • #6
            The only way to answer this question is to compare:
            - French and English law in 1888/1895
            - French and English police methods in the same period.

            This said, there is nothing in the Ripper case that indicates that we should have to.

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            • #7
              Hi DVV,

              I think this is important, since Anderson mentioned this topic several times in relation to the Ripper, and there must have been a reason for it. As with Anderson's usual style of vague hinting, he does not go into any specific details of how this impacted the Ripper inquiry.

              I am just trying to clarify what Anderson meant when he said this. If you dont think it is important, that's fine. But I do.

              Rob House

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi All,

                "Albums" = Books of Mugshots.

                Regards,

                Simon
                Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I find I am getting more confused. I had originally assumed "albums" might mean a book of mugshots. But the whole section is still confusing me:

                  "Here we cannot drag you to Scotland Yard and examine you in this summary fashion. If there is good reason to suspect you of being a criminal all that can be done is to charge you before a magistrate, and if the charge fails there is no way by which you can be subjected to examination for purposes of identification. We can only use our albums against you if you are remanded..."

                  This seems to be saying that a suspect can only be arrested if the police are ready to bring charges against him. And if the charge fails "there is no way by which you can be subjected to examination for purposes of identification." (What does that mean? Is this a reference to witness identification? )

                  Also, what is meant by saying we can "use our albums against you if you are remanded"? How are "albums" used against a suspect? Does this mean that the suspect can only be photographed for a mugshot after he is remanded? (implying that the mugshot can then be shown to witnesses)

                  RH

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                  • #10
                    If these questions have been answered before, can someone direct me to the thread... those Anderson threads are long...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by robhouse View Post
                      Hi DVV,

                      I think this is important, since Anderson mentioned this topic several times in relation to the Ripper, and there must have been a reason for it. As with Anderson's usual style of vague hinting, he does not go into any specific details of how this impacted the Ripper inquiry.

                      I am just trying to clarify what Anderson meant when he said this. If you dont think it is important, that's fine. But I do.

                      Rob House
                      Hi Rob,
                      don't get me wrong, please.
                      What Anderson meant is important to clarify (in clear: "what are the powers possessed by French police that the Yard did not possess, and could have led to the arrest of JTR, at least in Anderson's opinion").
                      I'm so interested that, as I've posted, I've suggested to make some comparisons between French and English systems and police methods, and I'll keep an eye on the topic.

                      But what I said lastly, is that, since JtR was so extraordinary a case, no legal minor point, in my opinion, would have been enough to protect the murderer.
                      As Abberline said: the Yard would have been too happy to catch JtR...
                      Simply, Anderson was hiding himself behind his finger.
                      But this said, Anderson and the Polish-Jew's candidacy will ever be worth discussing, of course.

                      Amitiés,
                      David

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "Somewhere at the top of the Home Office, in long dark and dusty corridors, there are kept the habitual criminals' registers; but they are seldom visited by the police, who find the information they desire readier to hand in the less voluminous records of the Convict Office. These records are contained in albums, and they comprise a collection of upwards of 38,000 photographs of criminals, taken at the time of their discharge. They date back to 1862, some eighteen years earlier than the formation of the department, but it is only since then that they have been so accessible. Each album, properly classified, contains 6,000, and, for the purposes of speedy reference, duplicates are pasted in smaller volumes of 500 portraits each, and these give also the written particulars of each case, and the bodily peculiarities and 'marks' as ascertained by the processes already described. Photographs are printed for circulation amongst all police forces of the United Kingdom."

                        Police! by Charles Tempest Clarkson and J. Hall Richardson (1889).

                        Does anyone have any idea if these police photo albums still exist in an archive somewhere?

                        Rob H

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