Anderson - More Questions Than Answers

[Chris]

Ap, thanks for your words. So..........it wasnt Aaron who was "confronted"by a witness, but Thomas,and maybe it was by the Mitre Square[beat] PC -or another PC perhaps,at the Policeman"s Seaside Home, around 1891.However when the PC realised the suspect was the nephew of a senior policeman,he declined from continuing with the procedure.

I think we should try to maintain some kind of contact with reality here.

Clearly both Anderson's suspect and Anderson's witness were Jewish. And the Swanson marginalia name the suspect as Kosminski. And the only reason a City PC comes into the equation is that he is mentioned by Macnaghten in the Aberconway draft, and is said to have seen someone who resembled Kosminski.

By all means argue that Anderson's and Swanson's claims are unreliable, and by all means argue the case for Thomas Cutbush, if you think he's a plausible suspect. But it's just not credible to argue that whenever Anderson and Swanson use the word "Jew", what they really mean is "policeman"!

[Bailey]

But it's just not credible to argue that whenever Anderson and Swanson use the word "Jew", what they really mean is "policeman"!

Were there a lot of "low class Polish policemen" around at the time?

B.

[Natalie Severn]

Well whoever it was these two policeman accuse of being Jack the Ripper,the man Anderson said" died" soon after being caged in an asylum,it is certainly very far fetched and not dealing with the reality of the matter ,to conclude it was "Aaron" Kosminski, a young man freely walking his dog in Cheapside in 1889,a year after the frenzied attack on Mary Kelly.A man not considered dangerous at ANY point either upon his admission to Colney Hatch in 1891 or at any time during his long incarceration ,either there or in Leavesdon and recorded as "not dangerous".A man also recorded as being able to read and write, who appears to have been a bit of a pseudo intellectual,able to describe, for example ,soon after admission in 1891,and in English - not in his mother tongue Yiddish, his auditory hallucinations as," Guidance by a Universal Instinct who knows the movements of all mankind".
This Kosminski was still alive and kicking a year after Anderson himself had died,let alone having died soon after admission to an asylum in 1891.

[Robert]

It sounds to me as though Aaron thought he was in touch with his god.

[Natalie Severn]

It sounds to me as though Aaron thought he was in touch with his god.

Yes Robert.And it sounds to me as though he wasnt alone.Anderson had a private "hotline" with his,and was in intense preparation for the Second Coming!

[Robert]

I think Wilhelm Steinitz, the great chess player, during a period of mental illness believed that he could literally phone god up. And beat him at chess giving him odds.

I doubt if the murders were religiously inspired (at least not directly) though the Eddowes murder following so closely on Stride's carries a hint of a task that must be performed (e.g. Stephensonian black magic).

[Chris]

Well whoever it was these two policeman accuse of being Jack the Ripper,the man Anderson said" died" soon after being caged in an asylum,it is certainly very far fetched and not dealing with the reality of the matter ,to conclude it was "Aaron" Kosminski, a young man freely walking his dog in Cheapside in 1889,a year after the frenzied attack on Mary Kelly.

But of course, Anderson didn't say anything about the suspect being dead - that was Swanson, who obligingly named him as "Kosminski".

[harry]

As for myself,I do not,fortunately,allow any person of any position,the priviledge of being unable to lie.I do allow that most people,most of the time,tell the truth.So I put Anderson in both categories.

I would accept that if an identification could be proven,and the place and identities of the persons present established,then the ripper murders would probably be seen as solved.

The persons,Anderson,and indirectly Swanson,who made the claim that an identification had taken place,did not furnish the details neccessary to substantiate the claim,and exhaustive efforts by acknowledged expert researchers to unearth such details have failed.That being so,it is most probable that the event did not occur.

I feel that if present day authors want to be taken seriously,and want theories to be accepted,they should first,before one word is written,prove the basis of their theory.In the case under consideration,it would be the identification of one person in respect of another.

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:
"I would accept that if an identification could be proven,and the place and identities of the persons present established,then the ripper murders would probably be seen as solved."

I am not all that sure, since there would have been such a long gap of time between sighting and identification. Keeping in mind that Lawende said that he was not sure whether he would recognize his man or not if he was to encounter him again, I don´t see how we could reach any certainty on the matter with an identification made such a long time after Church Passage.

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[Johnr]

There is no doubt Robert Anderson was a mass of contradictions: a deeply religious man who devoted many paragraphs to the consideration of " sexual maniacs '.
That's right. He had no doubt his Ripper was an out and out sexual maniac.
Much has been said about the virtuous character of Anderson - a good Christian man. Who did honourable things and led a pure life.
Well, here is a contradiction.
Anyone who understands the role of the Special Irish Branch as a cat's-paw for dirty deeds in rounding up the Fennian terrorists - (A cat's-paw for a Westminster- style British government) - will know that people like Anderson
had to get their hands well and truly dirty. To encourage others to tell lies, indulge in forgery and occasionally perhaps even look the other way whilst murder happened.(And I'm not talking Ripper murders here).
My point is, Anderson's involvement with a secret detective force who resorted to any means to get their targets indicates a certain moral athleticism.
My final observation is that Anderson, by training, was a lawyer. He brought his training to bear on his explanation as to how the Ripper was not caught on his watch. Because the Ripper was insane or committed suicide, he could not be brought to book. Therefore, here was the excuse why the Ripper was not caught. Hence Anderson escapes censure.
In my opinion both Macnaghten's and Anderson's whole venturing into Ripper literature was to explain the police were blameless in not catching the Ripper.
JOHN RUFFELS.

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Mr Evans,
I have been away in Switzerland for a while! I see that you kicked off this thread with reference to Mr Anderson's health spa jaunt. Can you tell us where he stayed in Switzerland ?
Many thanks.
Rosey :-)

[Natalie Severn]

Aaron Kosminski may well have been protected by members in his family who were aware of some " odd" behaviour but being fond of him didnt want him "put away'-at least not until things got out of hand in 1891.
The story of Kosminski and the dog he walked around Cheapside, is an interesting one.It sounds as though he liked taking the dog out and to me this sounds like he liked dogs and had a gentle side to him concerning animals.Ofcourse he got into trouble with the law because he took the dog out without a muzzle and recent legislation had ruled that all dogs had to be muzzled when out in the streets. Aaron may not have wanted to put a "muzzle" on his dog friend,and he probably knew it wasn"t necessary for this particular dog when he was with Aaron at any rate and Aaron,from all accounts, was exceedingly obstinate when asked to do anything he didnt want to do.
I accept though that there were a couple of instances when he showed a side to himself that was violent.The attack on his sister with a knife is instructive in this regard.He showed he could be dangerous.Likewise, he took a chair to someone in Colney Hatch who had crossed him- which also isnt the sort of behaviour that someone who is completely "harmless" would usually indulge in.
Other than these two events nothing is known about him so far from Hospital records that tallies with Robert Anderson"s description of a Jewish suspect who he believed was JtR or with Melville Macnaghten"s description of the suspect he named Kosminski.More certainly needs to be discovered
about him .

[Jeff Leahy]

Norma

You raise some interesting points However none of this has anything to do with Sir Robert Anderson. I have taken some care to start a new thread dealing exactly with this subject. I guess we don't always see eye to eye, but I really would like to have this conversation and see where it leads, if thats OK with you? So how about moving to the appropriate Thread?

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Norma

You raise some interesting points However none of this has anything to do with Sir Robert Anderson. I have taken some care to start a new thread dealing exactly with this subject. I guess we don't always see eye to eye, but I really would like to have this conversation and see where it leads, if thats OK with you? So how about moving to the appropriate Thread?

Pirate

Pirate,
I dont agree that the above has nothing to do with this Anderson thread.
The reason some of us are interested in Anderson is because of he said he knew who the Ripper was.
A good place to start questioning his words on this is surely to ask who his "Kosminski" suspect was?
Whether the Aaron Kosminski discovered by Martin Fido,was the Kosminski about whom some believe was Anderson stated was Jack the Ripper-a "low class Polish Jew"? -and about whom Macnaghten wrote in his 1894 memorandum and we are told Swanson wrote, in marinalia and end notes.
We need therefore to test whether these assertions of Anderson match the picture of Aaron Kosminski that begins to emerge via the scant information that does exist.Information nevertheless which is absolutely crucial to whether or not we can give any credence at all to any of "Robert Anderson"s " statements about him knowing who the Ripper was.
I cited the Press cutting above,discovered only recently and which I believe is of huge importance when looking into the viability of Aaron Kosminski as the Kosminski who Macnaghten said was admitted to an asylum in March 1889.Well Aaron was out and about with his dog in November 1889 so its either a different Kosminski or Aaron was in an asylum somewhere else for part of that year which is most unlikely.


However this is not the only information on Aaron we have. Fortunately Martin found some hospital records of Aaron Kosminski. These records ,though scant, are very important surely? Moreover they are to the point , succinct and cover the 30 year period he was detained- a period that stretches from Mile End Workhouse in 1890 to Colney Hatch asylum in 1891 and Leavesdon lunatic asylum 1894.

Most importantly the asylum records never refer to him being considered dangerous.So why is that?
Don"t you think that is an important question to ask viz a viz Anderson"s allegations and statements regarding the identity of his suspect-a suspect he claimed was the vicious murderer and mutilator ,Jack the Ripper ?
Isn"t it therefore perfectly "appropriate" and "reasonable" ,in the light of these records we have on Aaron,showing him first as a young man who enjoyed walking the dog in Cheapside and later as a "non-dangerous" / harmless asylum inmate, to question whether Anderson"s statements on JtR being a low class Polish Jew, bear any correlation to the picture of Aaron that has begun to emerge ?

[Chris]

I cited the Press cutting above,discovered only recently and which I believe is of huge importance when looking into the viability of Aaron Kosminski as the Kosminski who Macnaghten said was admitted to an asylum in March 1889.Well Aaron was out and about with his dog in November 1889 so its either a different Kosminski or Aaron was in an asylum somewhere else for part of that year which is most unlikely.

But on that basis the M. J. Druitt that Macnaghten describes as "a doctor of about 41 years of age" must have been someone other than the Montague John Druitt we know about!

Considering that the records have been thoroughly but unsuccessfully checked for another Kozminski who fits the bill, the most likely explanation is that Macnaghten simply got the date wrong (as we know he got a number of his other facts wrong).