Anderson - More Questions Than Answers

[Robert]

Nats, just read your previous post. I'm wondering whether Aaron could have got into a public asylum if he'd once been in a private one, without the family having to take a means test. I don't know enough about the asylum system, I'm afraid. I remember Andrew Roberts telling me that the Cutbush family wouldn't have been charged for Broadmoor, but I don't know if this principle held across the board.

[Natalie Severn]

Good point Robert.But even if they had and Aaron had been for a few stays in a private asylum,his records at Colney Hatch and Leavesdon point to someone who was pretty harmless and I doubt the records would have referred to Aaron as being "not dangerous",if in fact he was Jack the Ripper.

[Jeff Leahy]

schizophrenia

Does anyone know if the myth that self-abuse leads to insanity was held by Jews as well as the rest of the population? I'm wondering if there was any self-abuse, or whether the family simply invented this as preferable to admitting the presence of, as it were, "bad genes" - I believe this sort of trait is a handicap in the Jewish marriage stakes, and might have reflected badly on the next generation's prospects.

I'm not cretain about this Robert. But certainly the issue of self abuse, and indeed sex drive and schizophrenia has been a subject that has tasked me for some time. Certainly some suffers from the illness seem to experience heightened sex drive but this is not the norm. We would typically expect lessened interest in sex.

Again Norma directs us to the known records of Aaron Kosminski, which is all well and good. However they tell us nothing, without knowning what happen to his mental state at the most important time of the illness, its on set.

We just do not know Aarons mental condition in the autumn of 1888.

However we can not dismiss the possibilty. Given what is know about this illness by modern professionals, that Aaron could have been very differant to his asylum records, at this stage in the development of Schizophrenia.

I base this accessment on information given to me by people who work in and have the responcibility for sectioning people suffering from this illness today.

I'm not saying Aaron's condition proves he was JtR. I'm saying given what is known about the illness today..IT REMAINS A POSSIBILITY.

and I caveat that statement by adding schizophrenics are NOT dangerous, are largely a danger to themselves and invariably in cases where schizophrenics have become dangerous, other external influences have been a contributing factor.

Pirate

[Robert]

Hi Nats

We have the sister knife attack (hearsay) and the chair, so not much.

It could be some sort of post-manic burnout, but the dog muzzle thing seems to argue against that.

Still, I've a soft spot for Aaron and would like to hear more about him, whether or not he was the Ripper.

[Robert]

Jeff, can you tell me if a violent phase could be followed by a gentle decline, or would it have to be followed by a sudden collapse?

[Chris]

Chris,
If indeed Aaron was in and out of an asylum then its strange Jacob Cohen didnt reveal that because he seemed ready to talk about Aaron"s dirty habits---eating out of gutters ,being very lazy.The family were questioned and replied that he had been acting strangely ,so to speak ,- 6 years insane.Why wouldnt they have said "and we did what we could,we sent him to a private asylum but now we are appealing to you to help us" etc

Indeed, in the "Statement of Particulars" when Aaron was certified, there is a section headed "When and where previously under care and treatment as a lunatic, idiot, or person of unsound mind", which contains only "Mile End Old Town Workhouse July 1890". So I think it's only an outside possibility that Aaron had been treated elsewhere previously. On the other hand Robert's suggestion could explain why the family wouldn't want to volunteer information about previous private treatment.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, can you tell me if a violent phase could be followed by a gentle decline, or would it have to be followed by a sudden collapse?

Hi Robert

I'm afraid I'm not an expert. I'm basing my information on discussing the case with my brother, who is currently in charge of mental health cases in Southend/Essex.

He has had conciderable dealings with Schizophrenics and was most interested in Aarons records.

Some of what he explained to me ties up with information given by Paul and Martin on the subject. However some seems to break away considerably from their thinking.

The age, 19 - 22, is typical of cases he has dealt with. He describes schizophrenics going through phazes or cycles. The first attacks lasting around 12 weeks in length. Then periods of recovery. These are followed
by further attacks which may be of greater severity. But they vary from case to case.

Without treatment (ie Modern Drugs) he would expect the sufferers condition to worsen, in phazes, over a considerable period of time until at some piont in the late thirties early fourties they reach a condition called 'Burn out'. At which time the sufferer would cease to function in this world at all, so to speak. They would however be totally harmless..

Incidently dispite often being cited Peter Sutcliff is far from being a typical sufferer from this illness, although like Aaron he has proved completely harmless since being locked up.

Pirate

[Robert]

Thanks
Jeff. Well, that poses a number of problems as to just what Aaron was suffering from, and even as to the nature of Cohen's and Cutbush's illnesses, neither of which seem to fit that pattern.

[Jeff Leahy]

PS where he agreed with Paul's conclusions, as in; early on the murders might be a focus for the patient to remain sane. So the idea of the brain 'giving way' once denied the opportunity to kill might be the case, possibly.

but I think he would caution over simplicity of such an idea...

the problem is that such cases are vary rare.

Again, my brother would be more interested in the sufferer being cut off from supplies of Alcohol as a reason for the murders to cease.

There simply are not many case studies to go by and my brother is not an expert on drugs used at the time or Aaron's historical environment.

All he can really give us is the possibility that Aaron could have committed these murders and have been harmless when sent to an asylum.

Again the important factor to remember is that Schizophrenics are largely harmless and a danger only to themselves.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Indeed, in the "Statement of Particulars" when Aaron was certified, there is a section headed "When and where previously under care and treatment as a lunatic, idiot, or person of unsound mind", which contains only "Mile End Old Town Workhouse July 1890". So I think it's only an outside possibility that Aaron had been treated elsewhere previously. On the other hand Robert's suggestion could explain why the family wouldn't want to volunteer information about previous private treatment.

Hi Chris

I dont know if this comment is of any use..

However if a member of the Kosminski family started acting in a strange manor, surely their first port of call would be their local Rabi.

Are there any records relating to the kosminski/Abraham family and the local synagog?

Yours Pirate

[robhouse]

Natalie,

At what point do you suppose Houchin, or anyone on the asylum staff or in the workhouse would have been notified that Aaron was Jack the Ripper, and by whom? Do you think the police would have said, "Oh by the way, this guy is Jack the Ripper. We cant prove it in court, but still...". Or do you think his family would have brought him in and said, "Watch out. He is dangerous. He is Jack the Ripper." Because the indication is that he was brought in by family.

RH

[Chris]

Are there any records relating to the kosminski/Abraham family and the local synagog?

Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, no records survive from this period for any of the likely synagogues in the East End.

[harry]

Reference to message 222.
I guess pirate jack that a guess(without explanation) is about the only response that can be given to a theory that consists heavily of guesswork.However,without broadening the subject to include the possible relationships between victims and suspects,it will be hard to accept anything Anderson says.Would Kelly for instance,have taken a penniless,dirty,mentally disturbed Jew to her room?.Anderson must have thought so,but is there evidence to the fact?

What of the identification.Why a seaside home?Why not a police station in Whitechapel.What sort of identification?Was it simply to establish the identity of a person in custody?Or perhaps to identify a person,unknown by name,but suspected of something?or further still to identify a person,known by name,but suspected of implication in the murders?This information is not given.Why?Because no identification took place. There was no information that could be divulged.There was no witness.That is my opinion.

There will of course be those that guess differently.

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning Harry

Yes there is quite a lot of guesswork and supposition. It sort of goes with the Ripperology territory. Hopefully however what you have on this thread is some of the most informed, well researched, and well-studied minds on the subject in the world. And while I don't include myself, certainly Martin, Stewart, Rob, Chris, AP, Robert, Norma,..(Sorry if I've missed someone) have given the Anderson/Kosminski debate considerable thought and detailed Study. And such debate certainly gets the mind ticking away.

Reference to message 222.
I guess pirate jack that a guess(without explanation) is about the only response that can be given to a theory that consists heavily of guesswork. However, without broadening the subject to include the possible relationships between victims and suspects, it will be hard to accept anything Anderson says.Would Kelly for instance,have taken a penniless,dirty,mentally disturbed Jew to her room?.Anderson must have thought so,but is there evidence to the fact?

Here certainly I’d disagree with you. I really see very little evidence to suppose that Anderson would have lied. Yes Anderson appears to have been a complex character with a number of contradictory personality traits. A brilliant and clever man, possibly prone to be arrogant and conceited. But to dismiss everything Anderson says, simply because of complexity, would be to rather through the baby out with the bath water.

Secondly re: your description of Aaron Kosminski. Here I must strongly disagree. Firstly while I don’t think you could describe Aaron’s family as wealthy or even middle class. For Polish Immigrant Jews they were clearly relatively well off. Aaron’s brothers Isaac and Woolf were Tailors, employing a number of people to make clothes for west end stores.

The fact is that all six victims entertained a man Anderson correctly describes as 'A maniac with blood lust' how else would you describe the man who committed these crimes? However that is not to say that when the victims first met him, that he might have seemed relatively plausible. And if we were describing a person in the early stages of schizophrenia we might well be dealing with a person of above average intelligence.

As for your description of dirty, I have a suspicion that Aaron may have been better presented than his Victims, some of whom were used to sleeping rough, most of whom lived in common lodging houses. Aaron after all, possibly, was living in Greenfield Street with family or at night in a workshop.

Also with regard to Aarons clothes, as he lived in a workshop dedicated to manufacture, and his brothers were tailors, I wonder if Aaron might not have been fairly well dressed at one point? Perhaps this would be more Rob’s area of expertise.

What of the identification.Why a seaside home?Why not a police station in Whitechapel.What sort of identification?Was it simply to establish the identity of a person in custody?Or perhaps to identify a person,unknown by name,but suspected of something?or further still to identify a person,known by name,but suspected of implication in the murders?This information is not given.

Fair comment. Tis a series of questions that has long since puzzled everyone and created scratching of heads. However that is what the Marginalia says, and as most authorities on the marginalia believe it to be genuine (it almost certainly is) then we are left with an ID at a Seaside home of a man that was insane.

Pondering this question over a cup of coffee, the question 'why' was raised and an interesting idea that was discussed was the possibility that the purpose of the ID was not to obtain an ID but to try and get a 'confession' from the suspect? Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Why?Because no identification took place. There was no information that could be divulged.There was no witness.That is my opinion. There will of course be those that guess differently.

Yes it’s a point of view and an opinion. However the fact remains that we have the man in charge of the case, Sir Robert Anderson saying as 'FACT' that the identity of JTR was known and they were unable to bring him to justice. And we have a leading Detective, making notes for himself, not the public, which seem to confirm at the very least, that something of significance did occur.

And I believe that the suspect referred to by Anderson, Swanson and McNaughten was Aaron Kosminski.

Whether that makes Aaron Jack the Ripper is another debate. However as has been pointed out to me by Rob House, there is not any known information that would appear to eliminate him from our enquiries.

Thanks for your post Harry

Pirate

PS. Thanks for that info Chris. It just ran through my mind.

[Natalie Severn]

Good questions Harry,though the murderer of Mary Kelly could have entered her bedroom via the method she herself entered,when she was asleep and he could have done so because he had stalked her.


Rob,

When trying to envisage such a scenario,you have to imagine that throughout this Ripper frenzy,Aaron"s Jewish family who had young children to protect as well as themselves ,witnessed Aaron in a violent, dangerous psychosis, -sometimes blood stained , acting in a very strange way on the very nights that coincided with Whitechapel murders and that had put the whole of Whitechapel into a state of terror.
You then have to perceive them as not only criminally indifferent to the safety and well being of themselves and their young children - even after hearing of a murder as grotesque as that of Mary Kelly,but that they permitted him to walk freely about Cheapside with the dog [1889]-not knowing when an attack such as that on Mary Kelly -or indeed any of the murders might recur .
We are then expected to further suspend belief, and understand that they would have been so criminally anti-social as to deceive Houchin about who Aaron really was ,thereby not only having put their own lives at risk for several years but prepared to lie and put other lives at risk by concealing the truth about him.
We are at this juncture told by Houchin or someone on the staff of Colney Hatch that Aaron Kosminski is NOT a danger to others,and so,and this is an important point here,Aaron has somehow between 1888 and 1891 on admission," transformed" himself from a dangerous murderer who the family "protected "from gentile justice" into a rather harmless person,who the family are fed up with because now he is in "masturbatory mode" and they really cant stand that! We then understand that he spent nearly 30 years in a lunatic asylum without either doctors or nurses guessing for one moment he was actually the world famous murderer otherwise known as Jack the Ripper.
It beggars belief,it really does.
By the way,I have worked with patients suffering from paranoid schizophrenia myself in the Art Therapy department of a large Psychiatric Hospital in the North of England.
Never have I heard of a person entering such an institution and being referred to in their case notes as "not dangerous to others" or "harmless",when that person had committed a murder.In fact it is quite unusual for paranoid schizophrenics who commit murder to be placed in any ordinary psychiatric hospital and if they are, they are STILL,most often, immediately placed in a padded cell with a straight jacket on until the drugs they are now given to control their illness and take effect.The usual institutions,NOW as THEN are highly guarded hospitals for the "criminally insane" such as Broadmoor.
Incidently,the average time of onset of severe psychosis is usually around the age of 29 [not 23 or 24], and what used to be called "burn out" used to happen after some 10 to 15 years l -ie at 40 or 45 years old.Burn out ,as far as I have always understood it, only happens after many years of recurrent episodes---as can be discerned in Aaron"s case notes,recorded though as a harmless person suffering from dementia .You can see he becomes more and more withdrawn and incoherent as the years pass.
In the end,left untreated,the person becomes a shell of what they once were.They shamble rather than walk,are usually very thin,disco-ordinated ,
vacant in expression and unable to communicate meaningfully or clearly.But this happens only after many years of suffering.However, it is one of the saddest sights you could ever see.