Anderson - More Questions Than Answers

[robhouse]

Natalie,

You said:

"NO,it most definitely is not consistent with anything currently known about Aaron Kosminski.
There is no evidence that Aaron Kosminski was violent,throughout the entire 30 years he was held in an asylum.
There is no evidence that he liked to "revel in blood" either."

Let's focus on one thing at a time, and talk about what is known about Anderson (not Kozminski).

1. It is known that Anderson believed that a Polish Jew was the Ripper. (This Polish Jew = Kozminski, ie. Aaron Kozminski... I dont think we need to get sidetracked by going into the chain that leads to this conclusion, although I am well aware people debate this).

2. We do not know when Anderson came to this conclusion, but if Swanson is to be believed it was prior to Kozminski's admission to Colney Hatch in Feb 1891.

3. In 1892, Anderson wrote "It is impossible to believe [the murders] were acts of a sane man - they were those of a maniac reveling in blood."

Aaron was a maniac. Anderson believed Aaron was the Ripper. Hence the statement "The murders were... those of a maniac (Kozminski) reveling in blood (Ripper)."

Whether "revelling in blood" is consistent with Kozminski is unknown (point taken, Macnaghten aside). But since in Anderson's mind, Kozminski and the Ripper were one and the same, the statement is consistent with Anderson's belief.

I do not see why this is such a problem.

Robert House

[Bailey]

Mr Evans,

I'd like to add my voice of appreciation to your contributions to this and other threads, including the assorted scans and whatnot, which are interesting in and of their own right, even if they are not always strictly on topic (not a criticism - I see why you would think of posting the cutting service scan in this context. I can also see how it is slightly off-topic, but not so much so as to earn a "reprimand" as it did).

The last few days since Mr Fido turned up have resulted in some very exciting times on the forums (again, not to suggest that things are dull without him - I so often feel like I'm walking on eggshells around here!) and I have enjoyed it greatly. I should therefore certainly hope that things continue as they have been and that none of these personality conflicts spoil that or restrict us from moving ahead. I shall say nothing bad about anyone at this point, but suggest that some parties are perhaps justified in feeling ill towards other parties, and sometimes vice versa. It would, however, be a pity if valuable contributions were to be lost in the future, and perhaps we should all carefully consider that.

Cheers,
Bailey

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Rob,
All we actually have on this, that we can be certain of, are Anderson"s assertions in Blackwoods Magazine and his autobiography of 1910.
Now its extraordinary that Major Henry Smith,a prominent City Police Chief himself, both during the Ripper scare and later , together with the Editor of the Jewish Chronicle state that he is talking poppycock and that nobody knew who the Ripper was.
We also have Winston Churchill taking strong exception to several revelations Robert Anderson makes ,in this same Blackwoods Magazine.Churchill objects to the "inaccuracies" that run through his assertions,which he puts down to his" advancing years".He also objects to the spirit of "gross boastfulness"-and says that they are written in the style of ,"How Bill Adams won the Battle of Waterloo.----that he just wanted to show how important he was ,how invariably he was right etc etc "---in short Churchill read Anderson"s words and had little time for him or his assertions.


This being the case we need to see whether anything the doctors who admitted him to Colney Hatch and Leavesdon have to say about Aaron Kosminski's illness.
The first record we have is by M.Whitfield on 12 July 1890.The reason given is "query insane".It wasnt serious because he was released three days later.

The second record we have is from 4 February 1891.M,Whitfield is again the admissions officer.Three days later Aaron is transferred to Colney Hatch.

THere are in fact two records for Colney Hatch with slightly different wording.
The "record of admissions" states that he has been 6 years insane [-in the second record there is an alteration from 6 months to 6 years.]


Interestingly the record of admissions states his symptoms are "incoherence"----the cause- "self abuse"

However the second record from the male patients day book states that the cause is "unknown" and then it says in red "self abuse".

the form then has an entry :

DANGEROUS TO OTHERS -:NO

and it states he is not suicidal.

A later doctor"s report refers to him having "aural hallucinations".

At one point in his 30 year incarceration he took up a chair and attempted to strike a charge attendent- 9 Jan 1892 but by Nov 17 1892 the notes state that Aaron is quiet and well behaved--- but only speaks German now-[probably Yiddish].

Aaron is noted also as being able to Read and Write.

The notes describe a few episodes of chronic mania from 1892 onwards but at no point do they retract from their original statement made on admission that Aaron Kosminski was NOT a danger to others.

His condition as he settled into institutional life deteriorated to what was described as "dementia".


Now none of these Hospital and Hospital Doctor"s notes support Anderson"s allegation that Aaron Kosminski had ever had been a "danger to others"---still less had been revelling in blood and was actually Jack the Ripper.

And I believe they would have done,had Aaron Kosminski ever been a danger to others ------which clearly Jack the Ripper was.
Best Wishes
Norma

[Chris]

The first record we have is by M.Whitfield on 12 July 1890.The reason given that he had been two years insane.It wasnt serious because he was released three days later.

Just a small point - the record actually says "Qy Insane" (i.e. "Query Insane"), and has been misread in the past as "2y Insane".

[Natalie Severn]

Thankyou Chris.

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks Rob,
All we actually have on this, that we can be certain of, are Anderson"s assertions in Blackwoods Magazine and his autobiography of 1910.
Now its extraordinary that Major Henry Smith,a prominent City Police Chief himself, both during the Ripper scare and later , together with the Editor of the Jewish Chronicle state that he is talking poppycock and that nobody knew who the Ripper was.
We also have Winston Churchill taking strong exception to several revelations Robert Anderson makes ,in this same Blackwoods Magazine.Churchill objects to the "inaccuracies" that run through his assertions,which he puts down to his" advancing years".He also objects to the spirit of "gross boastfulness"-and says that they are written in the style of ,"How Bill Adams won the Battle of Waterloo.----that he just wanted to show how important he was ,how invariably he was right etc etc "---in short Churchill read Anderson"s words and had little time for him or his assertions.


This being the case we need to see whether anything the doctors who admitted him to Colney Hatch and Leavesdon have to say about Aaron Kosminski's illness.
The first record we have is by M.Whitfield on 12 July 1890.The reason given is "query insane".It wasnt serious because he was released three days later.

The second record we have is from 4 February 1891.M,Whitfield is again the admissions officer.Three days later Aaron is transferred to Colney Hatch.

THere are in fact two records for Colney Hatch with slightly different wording.
The "record of admissions" states that he has been 6 years insane [-in the second record there is an alteration from 6 months to 6 years.]


Interestingly the record of admissions states his symptoms are "incoherence"----the cause- "self abuse"

However the second record from the male patients day book states that the cause is "unknown" and then it says in red "self abuse".

the form then has an entry :

DANGEROUS TO OTHERS -:NO

and it states he is not suicidal.

A later doctor"s report refers to him having "aural hallucinations".

At one point in his 30 year incarceration he took up a chair and attempted to strike a charge attendent- 9 Jan 1892 but by Nov 17 1892 the notes state that Aaron is quiet and well behaved--- but only speaks German now-[probably Yiddish].

Aaron is noted also as being able to Read and Write.

The notes describe a few episodes of chronic mania from 1892 onwards but at no point do they retract from their original statement made on admission that Aaron Kosminski was NOT a danger to others.

His condition as he settled into institutional life deteriorated to what was described as "dementia".


Now none of these Hospital and Hospital Doctor"s notes support Anderson"s allegation that Aaron Kosminski had ever had been a "danger to others"---still less had been revelling in blood and was actually Jack the Ripper.

And I believe they would have done,had Aaron Kosminski ever been a danger to others ------which clearly Jack the Ripper was.
Best Wishes
Norma

Norma you are making one basic error.

Schizophrenic's per se are NOT dangerous. If Aaron was JtR. There must have been other factors acting at the time that would make him dangerous.

Probably drugs alcohol or a combination.

We are talking about the on set of Schizophrenia which we would associate at the age of 19-22 years. The first psychotic episodes lasting at periods of 12 weeks. Getting steadily stronger in affect.

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Look Pirate, I am looking at what Aaron"s doctors actually recorded about him.
The FACTS recorded about Aaron by those who worked closely with him over 30 years--------not what we would possibly prefer them to have recorded.

[robhouse]

Natalie,

That is all fine and good, but like I said - focus on one thing at a time. I was ONLY saying that Anderson's 1892 statement ("[the murders] ... were those of a maniac reveling in blood") is consistent with what Anderson later stated he believed, and the timeline of when he probably came to this conclusion.

Whether or not Anderson was wrong in his belief is a DIFFERENT discussion, as is whether or not Aaron was violent.

RH

[Cap'n Jack]

So, I assume, Rob that you, and others, do believe that low-class Polish Jews were murdering children and women in 1888 to supply grease for the synagogue candles; and that Robert Anderson's thoughts on the subject were nothing to do with a government inspired attempt to keep those same bestial Jews out of England?

[robhouse]

"I am looking at what Aaron"s doctors actually recorded about him. The FACTS recorded about Aaron by those who worked closely with him over 30 years"

The facts recorded about Aaron come from his 2 admissions to Mile End, his admissions to Colney Hatch and Leavesden Asylums, and accompanying documentation.

Then there are 9 brief entries about Aaron at Colney Hatch from Feb 1891 to April 19 1894. In one of these he is said to be violent. As late as 1893 he "Answers questions concerning himself."

Then there are no files (that I have seen) regarding Aaron's physical or mental condition from Aaron's admission at Leavesden until 1910. In other words, a 16 year gap in his records. He died in 1919.

Then the files resume toward the end of Aaron's life, by which time he "cannot answer questions of a simple nature." (1910) "No replies can be got by questions." (1911) "No sensible reply can be got by questions." (1913) etc.

Thus we have in total 9 years of entries during which Aaron has degenerated mentally and mumbles, cannot answer questions, incoherent etc. Plus we have 9 entries over a period of just over 3 years. And then the documentation of his admissions, and his insanity certification.

So I am not sure how that adds up to 30 years of facts recorded by doctors.

RH

[robhouse]

Cap'n Jack,

No, I dont believe that. And I dont know what you are talking about.

[Chris]

(I spent a long time looking at admissions around March 1889, noting, like Mark King later, the possibility of Hyam Hyams. As for my general asylum search, I looked at all Colney Hatch inmates from 1888 to 1898 ultimately and made notes on all Jewish patients admitted between 1888 and 1890, and all Jewish patients in the other London asylums between 1888 and 1890. These included their places of residence and age, occupation, and any other useful details. What I should have written, of course, is that Cohen was the only Jewish patient from Whitechapel to die prematurely between 1888 and 1895. I can’t actually remember whether any of the old men who died at a natural age were from Whitechapel, and haven’t time to dig out my notes and see).

Thank you for clarifying that.

But Chris’s observation certainly leaves those who want Kosminsky to be the suspect and Swansons’ notes to describe one set of events all occurring in or around 1891 with new problems, though there may well be ways to hypothetize around them. I look forward to discussing this with Paul Begg

Although, for the reasons I've already mentioned, I don't find the Cohen/Kozminski confusion theory at all plausible, it might perhaps be that some of the problems with the statements made about Kozminski by Swanson and Macnaghten could be explained if he was investigated primarily by the City CID, with minimal involvement by the Met at the time. That might be one way of explaining Macnaghten's apparent error over the date of Aaron Kozminski's committal.

It might also be that the "identification" really did take place before Macnaghten joined the force - perhaps even in March 1889. That would mean Swanson was mistaken in thinking that Aaron Kozminski was committed soon after the "identification", as well as about the date of his death. If so, and if Macnaghten thought the same, that might also explain the apparent error.

(Incidentally, I wonder whether it's significant that Macnaghten removed "and I believe still is [detailed in an asylum]" between the Aberconway draft and the final version. Was that because when he came to check on it he was told that Kozminski was dead - as Swanson (perhaps) believed by the following year - or at least was unable to find any information to confirm he was still alive?)

Pirate – I only missed Kosminsky’s infirmary entry. He definitely did not enter any asylum before 1891.

It certainly appears he didn't. But if I understand correctly, there is one possibility - that he could have entered a private asylum as a voluntary patient. I believe this wouldn't have been noted in any of the records that have been searched.

It may seem unlikely, and it seems that Aaron's brother Woolf and brother-in-law Morris would have lacked the means to send him to such a place at that time. But his brother Isaac would, apparently, have had the means to do so, if he'd wanted to.

If - and it's still a big if - the accounts of City CID surveillance attributed to Sagar and Cox refer to Aaron Kozminski, then there are perhaps some interesting indications there:
(1) Sagar: "after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum."
(2) Cox: "from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."
Cox's account in particular seems to suggest the suspect was in and out of an asylum, rather than simply being committed and staying there.

[Natalie Severn]

Rob,
What on earth has it to do with anything that the hospital records are brief? Probably Aaron just jogged along,a sad figure with a deteriorating mental health problem.There probably wasnt much the doctors could do about it---so what would there have been to record over the years?
What I was most concerned with was what those hospital records said about him on entry ie in 1891 ...and what they said was that he was NOT dangerous.That, I put to you, would not have been said by any doctor had Aaron been Jack the Ripper.Dont forget they had a duty of care to their staff and to other patients in their care,Had he been a dangerous man, we would, I believe,, have had some record of that ,such as him having had to be restrained-put in a padded cell,put into a straight jacket.But we dont have any hint whatsoever that that was ever necessary either at the beginning or the end of his long incarceration-of almost 30 years.
Moreover there are fairly specific notes at the beginning -on his admission.They refer to what Jacob Cohen has said about his eating ,drinking and work situation.
There is a clear and succinct observational note which follows the Male Patients Day book notes where he is referred to as NOT DANGEROUS:

"On admission patient is extremely deluded.As mentioned in the certificate he believes that all his actions are dominated by an "instinct".This is probably an aural hallucination.Answers questions fairly but is inclined to be reticent and morose.Health fair."

The above comments appear to be made by someone with a medical understanding of mental illness-probably one of his doctors.There is, again,nothing that hints of a "homicidal maniac" such as for example how Macnaghten referred to Kosminski nor does he fit Anderson"s comments about this low class Jew- who he called a " loathsome creature" and worse and ofcourse who he appears to have decided was Jack the Ripper.



The hospital records at no point from 1891 until 1919 give the slightest hint that Aaron Kosminski was anything other than a harmless man who suffered from episodes of hallucinations and dementia.

[Natalie Severn]

Chris,
If indeed Aaron was in and out of an asylum then its strange Jacob Cohen didnt reveal that because he seemed ready to talk about Aaron"s dirty habits---eating out of gutters ,being very lazy.The family were questioned and replied that he had been acting strangely ,so to speak ,- 6 years insane.Why wouldnt they have said "and we did what we could,we sent him to a private asylum but now we are appealing to you to help us" etc

[Robert]

Does anyone know if the myth that self-abuse leads to insanity was held by Jews as well as the rest of the population? I'm wondering if there was any self-abuse, or whether the family simply invented this as preferable to admitting the presence of, as it were, "bad genes" - I believe this sort of trait is a handicap in the Jewish marriage stakes, and might have reflected badly on the next generation's prospects.