Abberline's rantings

[lynn cates]

denial

Hello Chris.

"Such prejudices took hold early on in the case, despite the later heated denial by the medical community that the killer had any surgical skill whatsoever."

I thought those denials attached chiefly to Kate and MJK's murders?

Cheers.
LC

[ChrisGeorge]

I know Abberline was an experienced and competent officer, but looking at his 1903 interviews, I can't help thinkink that he wasn't fit at all for the Ripper hunt, having been completely misled by Baxter and Phillips.

How damaging would have been his belief that the killer was an "expert surgeon" ?
Not to mention the killer's trip to America.

In all likehood, he bit in the surgeon theory from the start. Hence his agreeing with Phillips that McKenzie had been murdered by a copy-cat, as reported in May 1892.

Apart from other causes (no DNA at the time, random murders, etc), would this partly explain the police failure ?

Hi David

As Neil can attest, Abberline was a very experienced Metropolitan police officer, by the standards of the day.

That's not to say though that his understanding of the medical aspects of the case might have been on the simplistic or deluded side, and nor that he might not have accepted some wrong ideas about the killer.

Abberline probably accepted early on the prevailing idea that the Ripper had surgical skill. Such prejudices took hold early on in the case, despite the later heated denial by the medical community that the killer had any surgical skill whatsoever.

Let's face it, because the police had so little actual evidence to work with, and they were constantly bombarded with information and leads that often had little to do with the actual killer, all types of theories and ideas took hold.

Then as now, your theory is as good as mine, and the Ripper can be whomever you want him to be.

Best regards

Chris

[lynn cates]

knifework

Hello David. Let's be generic then. Whence Baxter's conviction that someone were removing organs and selling them? From Bagster's assessment of the knifework.

Whence came that? From the skill shown in the wounds.

My point? All talk of surgeons, expert cutters, etc. came from this source, and all depended--in the final analysis--upon the expertise seen in the cuttings.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Lynn

I think the surgeon business was a conjecture.

It was a conviction in Abberline's interviews.

As I've said before, THAT they thought it was perpetrated by a surgeon was probably a mistake; but, WHY they thought it was a surgeon may be significant.

Not "they" tought. It's Abberline ("expert surgeon") and perhaps a few others. Even Macnaghten didn't go that far.

[lynn cates]

surgeon

Hello David. Thanks. This helps.

I think the surgeon business was a conjecture. As I've said before, THAT they thought it was perpetrated by a surgeon was probably a mistake; but, WHY they thought it was a surgeon may be significant.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Lynn, as a Scot, you should know single malt is no booze. Bruichladdich is elaborated by a great artist named Jim McEwan.
So don't be misled.
And to answer your question again, yes, he was misled by Baxter and Phillips. There was no expert surgeon behind the murders.

[lynn cates]

barrel of fun

Hello David.

"Misled in a most terrible way, my dear."

Umm, shocking, innint?

Seriously, this is too cryptic to fathom.

The barrel of Bruichladdich I sent? Oh, dear. You were not to drink it off at a single draught. You were to make it last.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

No my d...friend.
What a clocker.

[Stephen Thomas]

I know Abberline was an experienced and competent officer, but looking at his 1903 interviews, I can't help thinking that he wasn't fit at all for the Ripper hunt, having been completely misled by Baxter and Phillips.

Yeah, what a wanker.

[Stephen Thomas]

David

'Mon cher' might literally be translated into English as 'my dear' but in English such words are not uttered between male heterosexual persons.

Just for jolly.

[DVV]

Misled in a most terrible way, my dear.

[lynn cates]

How?

Hello David. I mean "Misled in what way?"

Did they misdescribe the wounds? Body placement?

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

"I can't help thinking that he wasn't fit at all for the Ripper hunt, having been completely misled by Baxter and Phillips.'

Misled? How so?

LC

???
Misled. Yes.

[lynn cates]

But then there's that.

Hello David.

"I can't help thinking that he wasn't fit at all for the Ripper hunt, having been completely misled by Baxter and Phillips.'

Misled? How so?

"How damaging would have been his belief that the killer was an "expert surgeon"?"

Perhaps not at all. What has always fascinated me is not THAT they saw an experienced (skillful) hand, but WHY they saw one. The answer should be obvious.

"In all likehood, he bit in the surgeon theory from the start."

Well, his missive of September 19, 1888 indicates a butcher.

"Hence his agreeing with Phillips that McKenzie had been murdered by a copy-cat, as reported in May 1892."

Or possibly his excellent reasoning powers as an experienced copper.

"Apart from other causes (no DNA at the time, random murders, etc), would this partly explain the police failure?"

Possibly. But I think their problem was the same as today's problem--we tend to generalise and lump disparate things together. Then, too, many top people were on leave.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Could you give me the interview quote for this, David? I don't have Sugden or much Ripper lit with me here in Chicago. I assume that Abberline is referring to Chapman in the quote in question?

Hi Maria, it's all in the Pall Mall Gazette 1903. Two interviews, and rather long.

Not sure at all if Abberline “bit“ into the surgeon theory early on. If so, it might even be related to Tumblety without us knowing.

Why not ? on the contrary, we have every reason to believe it was the case. In 1903, he "remembered" perfectly the Baxter-Phillips theory, and in all likeness, that means he had long since entertained it. Another evidence is his opinion concerning Alice McKenzie, murdered just months after Kelly.