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  • #31
    1)

    The very question reveals a misconception about the case; that Kelly was seen as the final murder at the time, or that anybody who could do that to a fellow human being must be ga ga and about to kill themselves. These are all mythical amplifications of the tale provided by Macnaghten.

    Acually, Frances Coles murdered on Feb 13th 1891, was thought by press and public and police to be the last victim until Macanghten, via Griffiths, locked in the five, ending with Kelly. He did this because of the inconvenient timing of Druitt's death, the embarrassing factor which Mac concealed from the Liberal govt and his own cronies, and thus the public, until his memoirs -- and they were ignored.

    No, I do not think that in 1888 Scotland Yard and/or the Home Office made any connection, whatsoever, between the tragic -- but not suspicious -- death of a mentally unbalanced barrister/respectable gentleman from Blackheath with, of all things, the 'Jack the Ripper' murders.

    2)

    I do not yet have the resources to check everything that Macnaghten wrote in 'Days of My Years' against other sources, which is why I am dissatisfied with my own book/manuscript.

    On the other hand, I would say that other researchers, Chris Phillips and Debra Arif for example, have dug up really interesting stuff about the Elizabeth Camp murder of 1897 which Mac mentions in a chapter called 'Railway Murders'.

    From my point of view -- and not Arif and Phillips I stress -- it shows that Macnaghten could fuse together suspects in another case in order to hide a [fellow English gentleman] suspect, in this case an innocent one. I have an article coming out, the third in my Macnaghten trilogy, which goes into more detail for those interested.

    Furthermore, in Mac's preface -- in which he suggestively juxtaposes cricket-Ripper-errors -- he claims that he is writing from memory alone; a pre-emptive and humble apology from a man known for his extraodinary powers of recall.

    The point is, that chapter on the Ripper is not written from memory at all. He used 'Aberconway' right at his elbow. In fact he adapted it as he saw fit (eg. no witness, the sidekick suspects dumped) as this was going to be the only document with his knighted name on it for the public record. In effect it is the defacto 'third' version of the Mac Report, and I would argue the definitive one as the police chief saw it.

    For example, unlike the other two versions where Druitt seems to have been a contemporaneous suspect to the 1888 investigation (for that's how both Griffiths and Sims interpreted the hyped-up version they were privy too) the deceased fiend is revealed to have only been discovered from information received 'some years after' he topped himself.

    This source, the Mac memoirs from 1914 and the defacto third version of his report, perfectly dovetails with the 'West of England' MP source of Feb 11th 1891 -- eg. some years after.

    Comment


    • #32
      I can see where you are coming from JH, but as i said earlier, the unfortunate thing is that you cite hardly any evidence and even that tends to be internal (ie analysis of documents) or comparative (between documents).

      As far as I am aware we have no EVIDENCE that MM and the MP knew each other, met, discussed this etc. It is all circumstantial and suppositional.

      The errors MM and the inquest reporter made are best interpreted as mistakes.

      And even your theory can be countered by other explanations of cover-up - "political ones, for instance, that seem to me at least, more likely.

      On the whole though, I think MJD a dead-duck as far as being JtR is concerned - no evidence of him as sexually deviant, in the East End or any link to the killings AT ALL.

      Thanks for yuor thoughtful response,

      Phil

      Comment


      • #33
        To Phil H

        You never laid a glove on it, mate.

        History is based on supposition, if there are gaps which there always are.

        We have the murders, at one end, then at the other end we have Macnaghten's certainty in the only public document for which he appended his distinguished name. Historical methodology tries to fill in the veiled middle.

        From other documents by the same source we know that suspicion of Druitt originated with his own family. There was a go-between and his name is with-held. A 'private source' who somehow bypasses the field detectives.

        Guess who ...?

        The connection of Druitt to the East End, of being 'sexually insane', of being a Ripper suspect, comes from the circles in which Druitt moved in Dorset which predates the first version of the Mac Report in 1894.

        Comment


        • #34
          Jonathan, thanks for the detailed reply.

          I'm happy with your answer to my second question but I'd like to push a little further on the first. I certainly remember (and I am working from memory here - just like MM) the police looking into the case of people recently admitted to asylums follow murders or recently released prior to the murders suggesting that the 'madman as Ripper' theory wasn't an invention of MM. Based on this, it is hard to see how the case of any suicides with notes suggesting they may be mentally unwell just after any murder would not be investigated.

          You make an interesting point about the series not being thought complete after Kelly. However, this doesn't preclude investigating a suspect found after this murder. At the point of finding Druitt in the river they had no way of knowing that the series was not complete. It was only when a body was found 6 months later that this thought may have arisen. Certainly the police went to great lengths to determine whether the injuries on Alice McK. were consistent with previous murders and of course used a witness to attempt an identification of Sadler suggesting that later murders were given Ripper consideration. But none of this implies that at the time Druitt wasn't chief suspect or at least A suspect. Though not a very good one in my humble opinion.

          Raoul

          Comment


          • #35
            Fair enough, Raoul.

            We will just have to agree to disagree.

            I subscribe to the theory that Druitt was nothing to do with the police Ripper investigation -- ever.

            But he came to Mac's private attention, via the Old Boy Net, and he kept it to himself and later disseminated a fictional version to the public, via credulous cronies from the Crimes Club.

            I would just say this to Pirate and others.

            By all means, tell me if I am wrong, but no secondary source ever noticed that Griffiths had changed 'family' into 'friends', and Mac did not correct Sims when he did the same.

            Therefore, we can see the fictionalizing of elements of the Druitt story for public consumption. It's a fact, not a theory. The question is: to what extent and how conscious was Mac of this process of turning fact into fiction?

            How do we know that Macnaghten had not already started this process eg. 'said to be a doctor ...' which means might be a doctor or might not. As in, if he's not a doctor then my source must have been mistaken ...

            To Pirate

            The theory of a fading, self-serving memory muddle on the part of Anderson and/or Swanson is not mine -- I wish it was! It is originally that of Cullen, Farson, regarding Pizer, and then developed to a much greater sophistication by Evans and Rumbelow in 2006, regarding Kosminski, Lawende and Sadler.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Jonathan H View Post
              The theory of a fading, self-serving memory muddle on the part of Anderson and/or Swanson is not mine -- I wish it was! It is originally that of Cullen, Farson, regarding Pizer, and then developed to a much greater sophistication by Evans and Rumbelow in 2006, regarding Kosminski, Lawende and Sadler.
              Yes I'm aware of that.

              And as I have stated before the memory is poor on detail and facts. Dates, times even names.

              However what there is no evidence for is that the memory deteriates to any great extent as we get older. Emotions, experiences and stories we remember very well.

              The other problem is assuming that because we cant make the information we have tally with what we know, that a mistake was made in the first place.

              Surely better to leave the blanks with 'We just dont know' than trying to create an explination for everything?

              Pirate

              Comment


              • #37
                No, its better to try and come up with an explanation for everything.

                But there is no reason why opposing explanations for everything cannot compete with each other.

                The Ripper mystery-within-a-mystery, far from being a sideshow is the second main feature.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jonathan H View Post
                  The Ripper mystery-within-a-mystery, far from being a sideshow is the second main feature.
                  Agreed that there are many mysteries. Some are simply the result of time and viewing he case with twentieth century vision.

                  But to dismiss Anderson and Swanson as gerryatric wishful thinkers, without any evidence, is not history.

                  Pirate

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Fair enough, Pirate.

                    I see it the other way round. That their claims, or one person's claim and the other repeating it, proves -- for me -- that there was a fading memory muddle involved.

                    Their, or his, very claims are the proof of the element you regard as unlikely.

                    Could I be wrong? Of course. I usually am.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Having had the pleasure of a pint with Nevill Swanson before Xmas I'd be most surprised if Donald wasn't in full posession of his facaulties.

                      Better get some work done

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Yes, we sort of agree for my difference with the Evans-Rumbelow theory is that Swanson is simply writing down what Anderson told him.

                        The pitiful, desperate, pantomime of the anecdote -- straining to convince -- is reminiscent of Anderson's style, and then the flat, kill-joy ending, 'Kosminski was the suspect' (still no first name) sounds to me like Swanson asserting his own interpretation of the data. It certainly does not match the previous melodrama, hence my provisional belief that it is not Swanson's own opinion.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Phil,
                          Thanks for your reply earlier.Your answer does appear to make my "reasons to believe"post seem rather weak,I admit. Again thanks for taking the time.
                          Regards

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Glyn

                            It's debate and discussion that hones arguments and cases and makes them stronger. There's nothing to say that I am right!! I have no more idea of what's going on, perhaps less, than you do. We can only try to pull the facts we have together in a way that makes sense to us.

                            So I hope you'll go on flying kites here.

                            There are vested interests on this site - see the current one about the Nichols killing - who will desperately try to knock down anything that contradicts their own (usually over-intricate and wobbly - theory. You sometimes have to "shout" quite hard to make your voice heard, but my advice is PERSIST.

                            Phil

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jonathan H View Post
                              Yes, we sort of agree for my difference with the Evans-Rumbelow theory is that Swanson is simply writing down what Anderson told him.
                              Yes , I believe Stewart thinks Swanson the more likely source of the story and I would agree with him on that point.

                              Begg on the other hand seems to prefer Anderson as the source.

                              Originally posted by Jonathan H View Post
                              The pitiful, desperate, pantomime of the anecdote -- straining to convince -- is reminiscent of Anderson's style, and then the flat, kill-joy ending, 'Kosminski was the suspect' (still no first name) sounds to me like Swanson asserting his own interpretation of the data. It certainly does not match the previous melodrama, hence my provisional belief that it is not Swanson's own opinion.
                              Well I'd disagree strongly. There are other examples of Marginalia. When we examined it at length I also had a good look at the 'Jounalist known to City CID' maginalia...

                              Swanson uses what I would call old copper language (dixon dock green) and seems to expand on what he knows.

                              Pirate

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                To Pirate

                                Fair enough you do not agree about the disparity between the pantomime aspect and the flat conclusion.

                                And, I see what you are saying and this line of argument has been put to me before.

                                But could not Swanson's notations in Anderson's book all come from Anderson? The latter reminisced, and Swanson later recorded those comments. That still makes them Swanson's additions, with Anderson as his source -- for Anderson's book.

                                For example, Swanson asked for clarification about the hoax letter, he asked for clarification about the police official disturbed about a threatening letter, and he asked for clarification about the Polish Jew who was positively identified ... but when -- before or after he was sectioned into a madhouse?

                                And what happened to that 'suspect'?

                                Oh, he died 'soon after' in the asylum.

                                At that moment, Swanson remembered whom this must be.

                                It must be the suspect 'Kosminski' (first name lost) who first came to their attention via Macnaghten in 1895, and who could not recall his first name.

                                Macnaghten, the officer who turned to jelly over the letter, had discovered this suspect from some 1888 search list, and that he was 'safely caged', and that his family 'suspected the worst', and that he had attacked a female member of his family, and that he hated harlots, and that he had worked in a Polish hospital, and that he masturbated like there was no tomorrow.

                                Even now, in 1910, Anderson in front of Swanson zeroed in on the chronic masturbation, the 'unmentionable vices', as evidence of the Ripper's brutish disposition.

                                This Polish Jew, apparently dead 'soon after' being sectioned, was the man to whom Swanson alluded, in 1895, in the aftermath of a successful identifiication of Grant, as the man seen with the victim Eddowes, by a Jewish witness --a breakthrough which went nowhere.

                                For if Swanson had been given a date about all this, say Feb 7th 1891 for 'Kosminski's incarceration, and he recalled that Frances Coles was killed a few days later, then he would have known that the tale was some kind of scrambled egg?!

                                The lack of dates (giving the impression that this is taking place much earlier than 1891) is not just a missing element, it is what makes the tale possible if not plausible.

                                Comment

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