Abberline's Role In the Ripper Murders

[perrymason]

Indeed, Michael. In fact, in comparison with Irish Nationalism and Fenian outrages at the time, Scotland Yard considered the Whitehapel Murders as rather small beer; an annoyance at best.

Graham

Hi Graham, nice to see you about mate,...

These murders are far less shocking than many other serial crimes that have been committed since then, and some killed in much greater assumed numbers than Jack did, but the immediacy of some of the social and political issues that surround the cases and the area I think must have some overlaps in terms of investigations.

In the greater scheme, if one had to imagine it in those terms, what would have had a more dramatic effect on the populous.... if perhaps the Jubilee bomb plot hadn't been foiled, or the Lord Balfour plot.

One reason these types of murders go unconnected for so long is because the prey are societies cast offs. Apart from feeling badly for the victims or being scared of becoming one, what impact did these deaths really have on the locals?

People gave murder site tours and made money, sold Ripper type experiences in wax museums and made money, the newspaper men made small fortunes, the people got rid of Warren in part due to the lack of progress in the investigations.... who they hated after Bloody Sunday in Trafalgar Square, some Urban renewal was forthcoming as a result of the crimes, .......aside from the specific killing period which may have lasted 2 1/2 months or more and was contained within less than a single square mile of London, almost everyone in London seemed to be safe from any kind threat.

I mean it was just the Unfortunates being killed, after all.

I digress once again.

Cheers Graham

[Nell Lance]

Very interesting theory, cazz
But like somebody said deny everything and demand proof
Abberline's wife's name is probably co-incidental and what of handwriting similarities? My mom and aunt had similar handwriting
I would need proof positive that Abberline was a cop gone bad, may have been insane and had nothing better to do in Whitechapel than off some unfortunates who were taking up space on the streets.
Since consuming alcohol and other drugs was common in that era, alcohol or substance abuse doesn't prove anything that could point conclusively to a suspect.
I would suggest like some other posters in this thread to garner some unique evidence and prove
that Abberline is a suspect beyond doubt.
One last consideration, since he knew the area so well, wouldn't he be recognized by the locals?


Nell Lance

ps I did enjoy Michael Caine's portrayal of Abberline but the theory in the film doesn't float with me

[spyglass]

Graham,
I wasnt questioning Abberline in the case but rather the reasons why he was put in there when there was more than enough competent officers already there.
I have also often wondered that because of the certain links between JTR and the Irish problem at the time (ie) Tumblety, Littechild and Nick Warrens conspiracy theory, if there are files concerning JTR in the Special branch archives somewhere.

[Sam Flynn]

I have always wondered why Abberline was drafted into the case after only one murder, or did the police know there was going to be more to come?

I doubt that they did, but there had been plenty of other recent "Whitechapel Murders" that had gripped the imagination of the public and the press. Seen in this light, Abberline was being drafted in after three or more murders, not just the one.

[Graham]

I should say that the only reason Abberline was drafted in is because he had specialist knowledge of the area, and doubtless had personal knowledge of some of its inhabitants. I would doubt that he was placed there because of any knowledge of the Fenian problems at the time - Abberline was a 'pavement copper' who knew only too well the kind of person capable of committing murder.

Cheers,

Graham

[perrymason]

Agreed Graham, however It would seem though that the bulk of the men assigned to these cases in prominent roles had "Fenian busting" as a large part of their resumes to that point....not a history with the solving of murder cases.

Even Abberline's successes with the Cleveland Street Scandal had no connection to violent crimes, and it seems at times that Abberline is unaware of certain investigation actions or suspicions within the force.

How plugged into he was of the activities in the Ripper investigations let alone the community in terms of known violent criminals is a question. He was a Fenian buster, and that got him downtown so fast in his career.

Im not so sure Abberline did feel the "pulse" of Whitechapel at that point....a LOT had happened there in the previous year.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Agreed Graham, however It would seem though that the bulk of the men assigned to these cases in prominent roles had "Fenian busting" as a large part of their resumes to that point

You'll find that, prior to 1888, Abberline was involved in all sorts of police work - much of it incredibly mundane. I see no evidence that suggests that Abberline, nor the bulk of his fellow ground-level detectives on the case for that matter, were prominent "Fenian Busters" at all.

[tnb]

Cazz - I have no wish to attack you for your curiosity, but allow me to raise a couple of points...

Given the propensity amongst prostitutes in the area at the time for using aliases (go across to the Eddowes board where a lively thread will introduce to the problems that can cause!) I think it would have been extremely unlikely that the killer, whoever he was, of Smith, Tabram or any of the 'canonical' victims (I include Smith and Tabram as you have) would have known their real names, especially if (as is usually suggested) he was luring them to their deaths by posing as a client. So to suggest he could have been consciously looking for an 'Emma' or a 'Martha' is I think a long shot. I see it would have been more possible in your version if Abberline as Jack was acting as some kind of sinister 'kind uncle' gaining the trust of these women with sixpences ('trust me I'm a policeman'), but he would not have been a policeman on the ground for those two early cases, and also the fear which (in your version) he was exploiting had yet to spread (there was no acknowledged 'serial killer' on the loose yet).

Also, the first of those two murders (Smith) is now commonly thought to have been the work of a gan. I personally do not think it impossible that 'Jack' may have been part of such a group, and went it alone when he realised his desires needed even more brutal expression. However Abberline hardly fits the description of members of such gangs (young, working class men) and even if he had managed to gain entry to such, a 45 year old upper class south-coast man would hardly have gone without notice. Given the press coverage Abberline gained later in the year do you not think that one of the other members would have been tempted to 'spill the beans' to the press that the 'Ripper' might be that smart looking policeman whose picture was all over the 'papers? There is no honour among thieves after all, and even less among murderers.

Plenty of people hoax letters, phone calls etc to the police in almost every murder case ('Wearside Jack' is the first to spring to mind but there are many, many more) and indeed during 1888 and beyond there are several documented cases of people declaring to friends, pubs full of people, and even the police that they were 'Jack'! You may be right that to do so most of these people likely had some form of mental problem, but that does not make them murderers. The numbers bear it out - they simply couldn't all be 'Jack' - some weren't even in the country at the time! So I would be very cautious about falling into the Patricia Cornwell trap of 'if someone wrote they were Jack they must be - so if I can show someone may have written a letter I can show they may be Jack'. Not that for the record I believe Abberline wrote the letters either, but I cannot prove he didn't any more than you can prove he did. What I can say with almost certainty is that either way it doesn't make a jot of difference to his possible candidacy as the killer.

Re. the Fenian 'connection' - is it not possible that the reason 'many' officers we come across in the case have 'fenian busting' histories is because that was one of the biggest police preoccupations at the time? I doubt that the amount of such officers on the Whitechapel case was in any greater ratio to the amount with some link working on any other case in the capital. It is the same as if you had taken a sample of Met officers (particularly top brass, such as Abberline) ten years ago you would have found a large percentage of IRA related CVs, and to do so now or in five years time you will find a lot with Islamic extremist experience.

[perrymason]

You'll find that, prior to 1888, Abberline was involved in all sorts of police work - much of it incredibly mundane. I see no evidence that suggests that Abberline, nor the bulk of his fellow ground-level detectives on the case for that matter, were prominent "Fenian Busters" at all.

You dont have what amounts to be a very rapid rise in rank over the years preceding the killings by being good at mundane police work Sam, and its stated that Abberlines rise was due to prominent Fenian arrests.

In 1867 Anderson reason for coming to London was to head a London Branch of intelligence officers following Fenian activities. Andrews was collecting information about the upcoming Parnell commission, Fenian related, at the time of the murders. In 1887 Anderson and Monroe were both involved in foiling the Fenian planned Jubilee Bomb plot.....Williamson was also involved with that,.....Macnaghten links the Ripper killings in early comments with the Fenians planning to kill Balfour in 1888,...Reid and Godley had been actively involved in some higher profile Fenian investigations, ....Littlechild worked under Monroe in 1887 in an intelligence gathering team, called "section D', which had among its mandates Special Irish Branch investigations,....Swanson must have had Fenian matters as a concern as the Superintendent of CID at Scotland Yard.....

To say that many of the officers that were later involved in the Ripper cases had established much of their careers based on the area of Anti-Fenian intelligence and investigations, is accurate Sam.

My position that many continued to do so while also investigating the Ripper crimes is less proven.

Best regards G

[tnb]

Michael (I know your post was directed primarily to Sam but I seem to have become entangled in this) -

I do not dispute that Abberline or Anderson may have owed some of their promotions to dealing with Fenian activities, nor that Swanson probably had experience of the same (I have seen his career files myself and certainly towards the end of his career, post 1888, there are more than a couple of 'national security' references). My contention is that this reflects the time a lot more than it does any 'specialisation'. Fenian activities was the hot topic of the time and I dare say many of the top officers had made their name dealing with such matters, just as I pointed out that many of the current Met top brass have backgrounds dealing with the IRA. Who do you detail to deal with such sensitive issues? Your best, most dynamic officers. And so 1) these are the people probably at the top of the queue anyway, and 2) they then have an even greater opportunity to further their reputation.

It does not mean they will only be posted to Fenian related crimes in the future. Yes, they would probably spot any link quicker than an officer not au fait with such things, but then again we don't know that they did, do we?

These are also likely the same people you would choose to parachute in to help with a publically sensitive, complex murder case do you not think?

To paraphrase you if I may - to say that many of the officers involved in the Ripper case had established their reputations on Fenian matters is undeniably true. But it is more likely than not also true that many of the officers in the entire Late Victorian police force, at least in London, and most of Scotland Yard had too.

It is an interesting supposition that many of these officers continued to investigate Fenianism while covering the Whitechapel murders, and I cannot disprove it. But it doesn't necessarily follow even if that could be proved that that is indicative of a link. As a student nurse for example I have spent a long time working on oncology wards and I really enjoy the work, I dare say I even made a little bit of my 'reputation' on there. Next up I will be on the cardiac ward - but while there, whether I continue reading up on oncology in my spare time or not, my focus will be on the heart, not on looking for tumours around every corner. Of course no elements of a career can be taken in isolation, but neither can one thread be automatically related to every other. Because you have an 'interest' in the Whitechapel murders does that mean you relate everything you do to it?

Happy Christmas and New Year to you, too.

[perrymason]

Michael (I know your post was directed primarily to Sam but I seem to have become entangled in this) -

I do not dispute that Abberline or Anderson may have owed some of their promotions to dealing with Fenian activities, nor that Swanson probably had experience of the same (I have seen his career files myself and certainly towards the end of his career, post 1888, there are more than a couple of 'national security' references). My contention is that this reflects the time a lot more than it does any 'specialisation'. Fenian activities was the hot topic of the time and I dare say many of the top officers had made their name dealing with such matters, just as I pointed out that many of the current Met top brass have backgrounds dealing with the IRA. Who do you detail to deal with such sensitive issues? Your best, most dynamic officers. And so 1) these are the people probably at the top of the queue anyway, and 2) they then have an even greater opportunity to further their reputation.

It does not mean they will only be posted to Fenian related crimes in the future. Yes, they would probably spot any link quicker than an officer not au fait with such things, but then again we don't know that they did, do we?

These are also likely the same people you would choose to parachute in to help with a publically sensitive, complex murder case do you not think?

To paraphrase you if I may - to say that many of the officers involved in the Ripper case had established their reputations on Fenian matters is undeniably true. But it is more likely than not also true that many of the officers in the entire Late Victorian police force, at least in London, and most of Scotland Yard had too.

It is an interesting supposition that many of these officers continued to investigate Fenianism while covering the Whitechapel murders, and I cannot disprove it. But it doesn't necessarily follow even if that could be proved that that is indicative of a link. As a student nurse for example I have spent a long time working on oncology wards and I really enjoy the work, I dare say I even made a little bit of my 'reputation' on there. Next up I will be on the cardiac ward - but while there, whether I continue reading up on oncology in my spare time or not, my focus will be on the heart, not on looking for tumours around every corner. Of course no elements of a career can be taken in isolation, but neither can one thread be automatically related to every other. Because you have an 'interest' in the Whitechapel murders does that mean you relate everything you do to it?

Happy Christmas and New Year to you, too.

I readily admit you make some excellent points tnb. And thanks for the wishes.

You are very likely right, that Senior Officers involved in Police work whether of a National Security level or local importance crossed paths with Fenian concerns as a matter of course, thus their records would all share to some degree that investigative involvement.

I cant help but feel though that their backgrounds in those areas would prompt their involvement in high profile Fenian matters of some importance, even when burdened by the Ripper assignments. Maybe some of National importance, which an assassination plot involving Lord Balfour that was foiled late that same Fall would have been.

Fenians were thought to have pulled off the Post Office Robbery, committed the same weekend as the Double Event. We know that men on site investigated both crimes that Monday.

That event alone is a connection of the investigations,....whether its meaningful or not is another matter.

I lean towards some Fenian activities occurring in among the Ripper crimes, so thats why I tend to draw conclusions quickly in this situation. I cant imagine a better opportunity for terrorists and anarchists to screw with the local Police resources....while they conducted operations that may have had National importance.

In the big scheme of things, Jack was news but not a turning point in the history of the country. What happened on paper is that some poor women without homes were killed then ripped open in the worst and poorest part of the East End, and all the crimes contained within a very small segment of London, therefore they likely posed no risk beyond the boundaries they were committed within. So, Jack wasnt even an issue for the rest of London......but what a sensation, nonetheless. All those resources and the best police minds in the city just focused on catching a murderer who only kills women that are in essence, half dead already, and within a small section of town.

I dont believe that Jack was the only, nor was he likely the biggest issue they were dealing with at that time in the East End.

All the best tnb

[tnb]

Michael,

I can't argue with that. Perhaps, to go back to the original question of this thread (wow, how did we manage to get back there?) these kind of 'split priorities' may explain why Abberline's presence on the ground in the Whitechapel case seems to be somewhat sporadic and controversial. If he was pulled off 'Ripper' duty as and when a Fenian angle presented itself that may explain why his nominal 'in charge' status does not always seem to scan with the times he is said to be in situ in the East End.

I completely agree with you that 'Jack' was probably not the police's biggest concern, at least at the beginning of the case. As you rightly state, their priorities, in a very utalitarian way, would have likely been weighted towards national security and issues affecting a) a greater number of people and b) people of higher social status and/or political importance than the Whitechapel murders. How I 'read' the police behaviour, however, is that I believe they were genuinely shocked by the level of public sympathy towards the murdered women - this was the first 'murder series' to be rabidly reported and digested in the press, and crucially in the kind of press accesible to the lower classes, and I believe the way it 'took off' took the powers that be by surprise. What I believe we see in the Whitechapel case is the beginnings of the police (and politicians) coming under a newly powerful press/public scrutiny, and I very much doubt they liked it one bit.

The police are still prone to this kind of misreading of public opinion - here in the UK a few years ago now we had a case in a small village called Soham where two young girls were murdered by their school caretaker and their bodies burned, they were 'missing' for a week or two during which time, understandably, their pictures were rarely off the news. When the discovery was made it was the biggest story of the year (not equalled until Madeleine McCann, I would argue), and the horror of it was made all the more dramatic by the fact that the murderer had actually appeared on those very news programmes as a 'witness' and appealing for information. A few months later the now ex head of the Met was in a press conference making an actually valid point about how violent crimes against ethnic minorities are underreported, when he spoilt it all by illustrating his argument with a point along the lines of 'Why do you think the media went so over the top about those two little girls in Soham? Much worse than that happens, it was a complete overreaction'!

The newspapers, who had never liked him (ala Charles Warren??? :-) ) had a field day, and this incident (not helped by a complete bungling of some terrorist-related incidents) was in many ways the beggining of the end for him. If they can do it after God knows how many PR courses they are sent on now I dare say they could have thought and said much worse in 1888!

None of this rambling rules out your possibility that the 'Ripper' may have been linked to the Fenians - whether explicitly ie 'employed' by them or merely 'assisted' - to act as a distraction of sorts, which is actually fascinating. One thing it certainly has on a lot of 'conspiracy' theories (if I may do you that disservice!) is that it does explain the sensationalism of the crimes, which of course a Stephen Knight style cover-up fails to. In his scenario, the publicity mitigated against the purpose, in yours, the more publicity the better.

I would be very interested to hear your opinions on the Littlechild letter in light of these opinions, but that is for another thread and probably another day...

[perrymason]

Hi again tnb,

I dont object at all to your referring to my ideas as Conspiracy theorizing, but so its clear, the only cover-up Im suggesting is one that is administrative and procedural, not something that was intentionally executed. I believe there are answers to some of these questions within the files of the Special Branch, and as such, will never be made public.

As far as our dear Fredrick goes, there are indications that he was not as informed about the investigations as many would like to believe he must have been, I think one point that illustrates that is when he sends for Bloodhounds that were already out of London and off the payroll. And his feelings about the investigations and any probable suspects are confusing....as are many of the officials remarks in retrospect.

But there are reports that he often worked all night, and took long walks to gather his thoughts.

Was he evaluating the progress of the Ripper cases, or dealing with a workload that involved the Ripper cases. Abberline has a posse.....Reid, Godley, and a few others including a man named Pearce, not the city cop I believe. They conducted interviews, visited crime scenes, and in the case of Mary Janes murder, they went to her room Saturday morning after the room and its contents had been scrutinized the previous day, and they re-seived the ashes for clues.

For clues of what? What murder evidence was small enough to be missed in a sieving the day before could they possibly be looking for? The heart that was discovered missing wouldnt have been missed in a sieving....and the clothes that were in the ashes were identified....so what would he spend Saturday morning in Marys fireplace for? With some of his "posse".

My belief is that they looked for clues that were not directly related to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly, but were related to her and her "circles" possible involvement of other crimes. Why would that involve Abberline and his men?

Thats where the ongoing Fenian investigations may rear their head, in my opinion. At the height of the crowds at the begininng of the week after Marys murder, 3 political bodies had representatives visit Marys room. Members of Parliament, a Senior Post Office Official....(remember the Post Office Robbery the weekend of the Double Event)...and some members of the Royal Irish Constabulary...., men whose job it is to monitor the activities of Irish Nationalists, among other tasks Im sure.

What does all this mean in terms of Fred?

I believe that the sieving Saturday morning produced evidence that tied in with the Post Office Robbery....a charred stamp or document fragment maybe?...and thats why they though that more than one person was involved in the Kelly killing,... because the Post Office Job was not a one man job.

That robbery netted the thieves I believe around 1500L cash......since Sam Flynn once told me that the 20L that was supposedly offered for the uterus samples by the American doctor had todays cash equivalent of around 1500L Sterling, that means the cash taken from the Post Office was worth approx 112,500L Sterling in todays terms.

It was also thought to be a Fenian operation.

So....you see where I have connected the dots to my own satisfaction anyway.

All the best mate

[YankeeSergeant]

Abberline as Jack

Hi is there any body out there that feels the same way as I do,I belive that Inspector Frederick Abberline was in fact Jack The Ripper."
I am new to this group,so still finding my two left feet.
Cazz

I would disagree but I would be interested in hearing why you believe that.