Detective Robert Sagar

[Patrick Differ]

Robert Sagar was considered by his peers as the best of the best. Not only was he medically trained but he would use disguises so convincing he was followed as a suspicious character by his own Police force. He was also the Liason to Metro for nightly meetings on the Ripper at Leman Street.
He is also apparently one of the architects of The Jewish Butcher Theory.
To revisit the " Who was it" regarding this theory you have to take a harder look at the inhabitants of Butchers Row at the time, and along with Ancestry ,you might be able to draw some conclusions. Process of elimination, although that might depend on accurate Census.
Sagar used his disguise as he states to infiltrate the Jewish community on Butchers Row. The Police also set up a watch accross the street ( 80 feet wide) to watch the suspect. The suspect was a Jew who worked on Aldgate Street, or perhaps, conducted his daily business there. Sagar also goes on to State that the suspects brother was involved and that he was involved in the stake out. There were 4 Jewish Butchers in the Row that were part of the Board of Shechita, licensed for Kosher killing and wholesale selling of animal carcasses.Kosher Butchers ( not slaughtermen) would buy the carcass from them wholesale and resell the various cuts.
Like every theory you have to relentlessly exercise them in practice to try and solve them. Sagar had a tip from a family member as they wanted to get him off the streets.
Based on the theory and inhabitants there only appears to be 2 suspects that make any sense. Solomon De Leeuw who was likely Levy Leews brother, both immigrants from. Rotterdam and Jacob Levy, whose cousin Henry lived accross the street from Butchers Row at #35 Aldgate. Henry was the brother of witness Joseph Hyam Levy. Henry lived next to an alleyway that connected Aldgate to Middlesex Street close to where JH Levy had his Butcher Shop at 1 Hutchinson Street.
Solomon De Leeuw is an interesting character as he was convicted of cruelty to sheep, was a heavy gambler and racked up massive debt. He also died in an Asylum from mania in 1890.
Jacob Levy has a backstory that has not been fully vetted and he might be the better suspect for this Theory. He may also be the Hove suspect with Joseph Hyam as the witness and not Lawende or Schwartz.
It's not clear how Sagar got the tip or who got the tip in London City police jurisdiction. It could be why Eddowes went in the direction of Aldgate?

[JeffHamm]

I believe there's an article where Sagar says that on the night of the double event they were watching their suspect's residence, which was a bit north west of Mitre Square (near Artillery Lane I think). I wonder if a census has been searched to see if anyone in that area might be a good candidate given the other information we have?

- Jeff

[jerryd]

I believe there's an article where Sagar says that on the night of the double event they were watching their suspect's residence, which was a bit north west of Mitre Square (near Artillery Lane I think). I wonder if a census has been searched to see if anyone in that area might be a good candidate given the other information we have?

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

I believe you are referring to the Windsor Street Stakeout? The one candidate that stands out, of course, is Joseph Barnett. He lived in nearby New Street. I personally don't think he was the City Police suspect, but, who knows?

*Edit I say lived in New Street. After he moved out he went there.

[Patrick Differ]

Levy lived east of Mitre and west of Goulston Street. He had family living in Wentworth Street dwellings at the time. Where was the killer between Eddowes being found at 1:45 am and 2:40 am when her apron and graffiti was found?
Sagar was watching a Butcher who either worked or did business ( bought from the same killers as Hyman Sampson) on Butchers Row. He goes on to say that they were watching the suspect from across the street and mentions a relative. Levys cousin Henry ( witness and first cousin Joseph Hyam Levys brother) lived at #35 Aldgate, directly accross from Butchers Row.
Jacob Levy was a convicted criminal lunatic and sent to Chelmsford for 12 months hard labor by his neighbor Hyman Sampson who was formerly living at 58 Goulston Street. Where the Eddowes apron was found. Instead Levy attempts suicide in helmsford and is sent to the Lunatic Asylum in Essex.
Jacob Levy is likely the Butcher Row suspect. This occured after after Mary Kelly's murder. Levy was sent to Stone Asylum in 1890 and died in 1891.
Coincidence? Conjecture? Circumstantial?
Also compelling.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

I believe you are referring to the Windsor Street Stakeout? The one candidate that stands out, of course, is Joseph Barnett. He lived in nearby New Street. I personally don't think he was the City Police suspect, but, who knows?

*Edit I say lived in New Street. After he moved out he went there.

Hi JerryD,

Yes, that's it. I don't think it could be Joseph Barnett since he hadn't moved out of Miller's Court on the night of the double event, which is when the stake out was supposed to occur.

Of course, the direction of the apron from Mitre Square tends to work against a suspect living in Windsor Street, and a stake out on that night would also go against the idea that JtR first went home, then re-emerged later to drop the apron elsewhere. It would be interesting nonetheless to try and put all of these bits of information together to see if a "suspect for Sagar's suspect" emerges.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Levy lived east of Mitre and west of Goulston Street. He had family living in Wentworth Street dwellings at the time. Where was the killer between Eddowes being found at 1:45 am and 2:40 am when her apron and graffiti was found?
Sagar was watching a Butcher who either worked or did business ( bought from the same killers as Hyman Sampson) on Butchers Row. He goes on to say that they were watching the suspect from across the street and mentions a relative. Levys cousin Henry ( witness and first cousin Joseph Hyam Levys brother) lived at #35 Aldgate, directly accross from Butchers Row.
Jacob Levy was a convicted criminal lunatic and sent to Chelmsford for 12 months hard labor by his neighbor Hyman Sampson who was formerly living at 58 Goulston Street. Where the Eddowes apron was found. Instead Levy attempts suicide in helmsford and is sent to the Lunatic Asylum in Essex.
Jacob Levy is likely the Butcher Row suspect. This occured after after Mary Kelly's murder. Levy was sent to Stone Asylum in 1890 and died in 1891.
Coincidence? Conjecture? Circumstantial?
Also compelling.

Hi Patrick Differ,

Those are good points, but Sagar also says they were watching their suspect's residence in Windsor Street on the night of the double event, which doesn't align with Levy. Now, it is possible that there are some errors in the stake-out information, but as far as I know nobody has either identified a possible person who fits all of the information (butcher working in Butcher's Row and lived on Windsor Street, etc). It would be interesting if there were such a person that fit Sagar's details. Mind you, as I mentioned above, if the date of the stake out is correct, in all likelihood Sagar's suspect probably gets cleared (or at least greatly reduced) given the problems the apron's location has with a Windsor Street JtR.

- Jeff

[Patrick Differ]

Hi Jeff- I've used ancestry and census and voting records to find out who the butcher or suspect might be. Butchers Row were primary slaughtering and 4 were Kosher making up the Regulated Board of Shechita. The only 2 butchers i could find that were there at the time are Morris Bosman and Solomon DeLeeuw. The rest of the inhabitants are older than 40 plus years. DeLeeuw was convicted of abusing sheep , was a heavy gambler, an immigrant from Rotterdam and died of mania in an Asylum in 1890. There is no evidence that he or Bosman were Punchers. I'm not familiar with the Windsor Street stake out but will check it out. Cheers

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff- I've used ancestry and census and voting records to find out who the butcher or suspect might be. Butchers Row were primary slaughtering and 4 were Kosher making up the Regulated Board of Shechita. The only 2 butchers i could find that were there at the time are Morris Bosman and Solomon DeLeeuw. The rest of the inhabitants are older than 40 plus years. DeLeeuw was convicted of abusing sheep , was a heavy gambler, an immigrant from Rotterdam and died of mania in an Asylum in 1890. There is no evidence that he or Bosman were Punchers. I'm not familiar with the Windsor Street stake out but will check it out. Cheers

I look forward to hearing what your research produces! I know the Windsor Street stake out gets mentioned in some old threads, which would uncover the full source that describes it. I can't recall how many years later this story gets told, but I think it is long enough afterwards that caution would be required in terms of the details (as in, was the stake out really the night of the double-event? Did it cover the time period in question? Was that actually the street? Was the suspect actually a butcher, or did they just work with a butcher? Did they live there during a census? etc), but regardless it is a starting point. Never look never know, as they say.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Hi Jeff

It wasn’t a story told by Sagar. It was an actual stakeout that occurred the night of the double event. It was recorded in the Times, October 2,1888.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Patrick Differ,

I've tracked down the reference to the stake-out, which gets mentioned in the Times, Oct 2nd, 1888. The most relevant bit being (found in the paragraph that beings "Many adverse remarks have been made ..." :

"At about the time when the Mitre-square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor-street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, engaged, pursuant to their instructions, in watching certain houses, it being thought possible that the premises might be resorted to at some time by the murderer. Five minutes after the discovery of the murder in Mitre-square, the two officers referred to heard of it, and the neighbourhood was at once searched by them, unfortunately without result."

However, PC Sagar isn't mentioned in this article, and now I'm not sure if I've erroneously connected him to this event, or if there's other information that ties him to the stake out being mentioned above.

At least the report of the stake-out was at the time of the murders, and it clearly indicates the police doing the stake-out were watching the properties at the critical time. However, if they abandoned their watch in order to search the area, I suppose that opens the possibility that JtR made it home and later re-emerges to dump the apron in a location to mis-direct police with regards to his direction of travel? I'm not pushing that as if it were a fact of course, but it becomes one of the many possible scenarios to be considered.

Anyway, there may be more information that saves me from embarrassment where PC Sagar is indeed tied to this stake-out rather than just through an error of my memory. Regardless, I don't think Windsor Street was very large, so even if this isn't PC Sagar's suspect, it may be worth noting the information of those who lived on Windsor Street in your search just in case anyone emerges that might be interesting enough to warrant a further look? As I say, I'm not convinced that whomever was being watched was likely to be JtR, but it would be interesting to see if it can be suggested whom the police might have had an interest in? If so, that might give us some idea with regards to police thinking at the time about what sort of individual they considered a possible JtR?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

It wasn’t a story told by Sagar. It was an actual stakeout that occurred the night of the double event. It was recorded in the Times, October 2,1888.

Thanks Jerryd!

I had just tracked the news article down as well!

While the Times doesn't mention Sagar, I seem to have connected that incident with PC Sagar somehow. Either there's a post where someone showed a link between them, or there was a series of discussions where I became aware of the stake-out and PC Sagar's Butcher's Row suspect were being discussed at the same time and my brain has erroneously linked the two.

Currently I favour the latter, as my brain can do stupid things like that all too frequently.

- Jeff

[Patrick Differ]

Jeff ;&Jerry- i read this after your posts and these are 2 seperate events. However the stake out mentions 2 additional men added to Bishopgate Police Station where Eddowes was sleeping it off. They also mention seeing the suspect going into Knights Arms Pub? Its not clear if they were trying to illustrate Barnetts residence to proximity to Eddowes and Kelly? Knights Arm is right off Middlesex Street so this would put Maybrick and Levy in that same proximity. Will have to digest this. Its late for me so I might be off base.

[jerryd]

If so, that might give us some idea with regards to police thinking at the time about what sort of individual they considered a possible JtR?

- Jeff

Jeff/Patrick,

I hear ya on the memory bit. Mine gets worse every day!

Remember, this was City Police, not Metropolitan Police. The City PD had their own ideas about who they thought were worthy suspects. In fact, the City Police suggested this was the work of two men working in collusion.

Philadelphia Times
December 3, 1888

The city detectives then early in the first week of October came to a definite conclusion, namely, that the two women met their death at the hands of different men. It was but taking a single step further to conclude that these two men were acting in collusion. The long interval that had elapsed between this and the previous butchery, the fact that the women belonged to the same class and the coincidence that the killing was done within the same thirty-five minutes all pointed to the same conclusion - that the murders had been deliberately planned, probably to be consummated at the same moment, for if even a couple of hours had elapsed between the two crimes the neighborhood would on the discovery of the first, have become so "hot" that the perpetrator of the second outrage would have found the matter of his escape rendered doubly difficult.

[jerryd]

Patrick,

I realized this was a Sagar thread. I'm sorry for switching gears. The intent to find Butchers Row and nearby suspects is there. Hope you don't mind.

jerryd

[JeffHamm]

Jeff/Patrick,

I hear ya on the memory bit. Mine gets worse every day!

Remember, this was City Police, not Metropolitan Police. The City PD had their own ideas about who they thought were worthy suspects. In fact, the City Police suggested this was the work of two men working in collusion.

Philadelphia Times
December 3, 1888

The city detectives then early in the first week of October came to a definite conclusion, namely, that the two women met their death at the hands of different men. It was but taking a single step further to conclude that these two men were acting in collusion. The long interval that had elapsed between this and the previous butchery, the fact that the women belonged to the same class and the coincidence that the killing was done within the same thirty-five minutes all pointed to the same conclusion - that the murders had been deliberately planned, probably to be consummated at the same moment, for if even a couple of hours had elapsed between the two crimes the neighborhood would on the discovery of the first, have become so "hot" that the perpetrator of the second outrage would have found the matter of his escape rendered doubly difficult.

Hi JerryD,

I rather suspect "police ideas" does not really refer to any consensus even within the Met or the City force. We can see with the opinions of various senior police officers that there wasn't really much of a consensus with regards to individuals, and the difference between (for example), Kosminski, Ostrogg, and Druitt (to list McNaughten's 3) are sufficiently varied individuals that even he doesn't seem to have a particular "type" in mind. Although, in his memorandum he does sort of suggest he considered some form of mental illness was present (Kosminski being schizophrenic, Druitt being "sexually insane", etc), but the variety of individuals, ranging from unemployed and eventual scrap scavenger, to con-man, to barrister/teacher (although listed as doctor) does suggest he had no firm "type of individual" in mind.

As for the city Police going with the two offender idea, that's certainly possible in my mind for the double event, but that's because I'm not sure if Stride was or was not a victim of JtR. While I tend to post more on the "was", that's simply because that's the more interesting of the two because if she's not then her murder becomes unrelated to the series as a whole - but I'm am entirely open to the idea that she's not a JtR victim.

The police of 1888 did not have the information we now know about serial killers, so it doesn't surprise me they see the two murders as unlikely to be committed by the same person. If Stride was a victim of JtR though, then I rather suspect Eddowes was simply a victim of opportunity that JtR came across while returning home after murdering Stride. If so, my thoughts tend to be that Eddowes had left the police station and made it down to maybe St. Boltoph's Church (apparently a place where prostitutes would hang out) or near the area where she was arrested (around Aldgate High Street). That would mean JtR headed in that direction from Berner's Street, and given the times and distances involved, Eddowes would have reached either of those locations before JtR would (around 7 or 9 minutes after being released, if she walked at an average speed; while JtR would require a bit more, around 11 or 12 minutes if he walked following a route south on Berner, then west and through Hooper Street over to Mansell Street then north - emerging at what I think is the public House Eddowes may have gone to), making their meeting up possible. If he headed north from Berner, then he would pass through the area before she arrived (unless, of course, he didn't head up Commercial but went over to Houndsditch and meets her as she's coming down). Anyway, this is all very speculative stuff, and drifting off topic, so I won't elaborate further on what is, after all, just another speculative line of thought.

But, back to PC Sagar. I'm now pretty sure I had just conflated PC Sagar's suspect with the stake-out. I went back to look at some maps I had made, and I see that I have PC Sagar's suspect in Butcher's Row, and the "stake-out" suspect listed as a separate suspect. I believe when I was updating that map, I added them both around the same time, which is probably what my stupid brain was thinking of above.

So, there's no reason why the Windsor Street stake out suspect need be a butcher, it would be interesting if someone living there did end up confined in a mental hospital or had a history of violence, as it seems likely the police at the time would be particularly interested in someone recognizably insane or known to be violent (and probably would be very interested in someone who was both).

- Jeff