Greetings from the past

[Mayerling]

Not to make a habit of sticking up for him, but Pierre does have a point. Prostitution has degrees, and it surely must have an expiration date. So the idea of "prostitutes" is actually quite a bit more complex.

If a woman sells herself in the winter but not the other three seasons, is she a prostitute? If she was one five years ago? Ten? If she does not allow penetration?

I mean there are sociologists who have been studying prostitution for decades who have a really tough time nailing down a definition. And since we are trying to distill all of Jack's victims down into a "type", it makes sense to try and agree on a definition sooner rather than later. Because Nichols and Eddowes might not both fit in every person's definition.

Well, I guess my comments on "Prostitutes" regarding the ladies could be subject to some consideration about economic desperation. I really feel quite sympathetic for all five ladies (and their fellow victims throughout history) but that last question of the meaning of the term "Prostitutes" just made me see red. My apologies for overdoing it to the rest of the members of this website, with the exception of the person who asked the question.

Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Sure. But there are theories based around the idea that Jack was actively seeking prostitutes for a variety of reasons. So if he wasn't strict about that, we need to either know why, or accept that there may be a serious flaw in the idea he was hunting prostitutes. Now, I'm fine either way. It just seems a sort of handy thing to all agree on. Sort of how we all generally agree on what a serial killer is.

I think we should nominate a special day once a year when we could all agree about at least one idea connected to this case. But what are the chances of agreeing on a date?

[Errata]

Then what was the lure to get them into dark locales in the small hours of the morning if they aren,t prostituting?

Puppies? I don't know. And maybe they all were. But it feels wrong to make that decision because "everyone knows" that Jack wanted to kill prostitutes, as opposed to believing that what each woman was doing that night was in fact soliciting. Like we are using the wrong filter on that information.

[Geddy2112]

Was she a "prostitute" in that room - or a woman alone and drunk?

I'm still a teacher even when I'm not in the classroom.

[curious4]

Why would Kate have a bed for the night? Kelly only had money to pay for one person's accommodation. It cost eight pence in a lodging house for a couple to sleep together. How would she know if he'd managed to get any work enough to scrape that sum together?

I don't know about Kate being released 'by her own request'. It was the custom of the City Police, I believe, to release drunks from the cells once they'd sobered up and were able to take care of themselves. Admittedly, she was anxious to go but she probably didn't want to be in a cell any longer than necessary.

She both asked for the time and when she would be released. She also said that she could take care of herself. Doubtful that she would have been released at that time otherwise. More likely that she would have been released in the morning. Kelly seemed to think that she would be and was not particularly worried about her.

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Then what was the lure to get them into dark locales in the small hours of the morning if they aren,t prostituting?

Possibly the prospect of being helped outbof the life they were living?

Just speculating here.

Best wishes
C4

[Elamarna]

I think we should nominate a special day once a year when we could all agree about at least one idea connected to this case. But what are the chances of agreeing on a date?

Hi Joshua,

I think the only thing you would get agreement on is the dates of the C5.

Not seen anyone every try and change those, solid evidence sort of makes it hard to do that I guess.

regards

steve

[Robert St Devil]

Filthy Mouth

Possibly the prospect of being helped outbof the life they were living?

Just speculating here.

Best wishes
C4

Hello c4 and all.
I know the ,s, word is second only to the ,c, word on this board... but i,m good with it only bc (sometimes) the ideas are intriguing but just don,t have the time to be fully realized.

I am at odds with Mary Jane being Jack the Ripper,s ,goal murder, only bc she tends to become the male ideal type - young, (possibly) pretty, (maybe) fun. IOW she has tendencies to be written as ,the mistress, type. However i would need this question answered:

How does Jack the Ripper know that her boyfriend Joe will not be living with her in November when he begins his murder spree in August? How would he know that he would eventually get the window of opportunity to murder her?

I,ve been considering that there was some type of prearrangement with some of the women. As in, he gives them an enticement earlier in the day to meet at a determined spot. I don,t think this happened with Polly bc I am unsure if she may have been leading him to the closed and newly painted gates (?) of Mr. Brown,s yard for sexual purposes.

Assisted suicide? Hmm... it,s a stretch but some of these women fit the profile.

[curious4]

Hello c4 and all.
I know the ,s, word is second only to the ,c, word on this board... but i,m good with it only bc (sometimes) the ideas are intriguing but just don,t have the time to be fully realized.

I am at odds with Mary Jane being Jack the Ripper,s ,goal murder, only bc she tends to become the male ideal type - young, (possibly) pretty, (maybe) fun. IOW she has tendencies to be written as ,the mistress, type. However i would need this question answered:

How does Jack the Ripper know that her boyfriend Joe will not be living with her in November when he begins his murder spree in August? How would he know that he would eventually get the window of opportunity to murder her?

I,ve been considering that there was some type of prearrangement with some of the women. As in, he gives them an enticement earlier in the day to meet at a determined spot. I don,t think this happened with Polly bc I am unsure if she may have been leading him to the closed and newly painted gates (?) of Mr. Brown,s yard for sexual purposes.

Assisted suicide? Hmm... it,s a stretch but some of these women fit the profile.

Suicide by Jack? Interesting idea and of course some women did say Jack or the river. One way of getting a decent funeral! Don't really think so really, though.

Just realised that what I said could be misinterpreted: by taking them out of the life they were living, I meant to a better one, not a heavenly one!

Best wishes
C4

[Robert St Devil]

Oh, i thought that,s what you meant in your last post, curious. On me!

[curious4]

Oh, i thought that,s what you meant in your last post, curious. On me!

No, my fault for not being clear. Interesting angle though! Death by Jack!

Best wishes
C4

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Robert St Devil;380234]However i would need this question answered:

How does Jack the Ripper know that her boyfriend Joe will not be living with her in November when he begins his murder spree in August? How would he know that he would eventually get the window of opportunity to murder her?

Hi Robert,

Of course he could not have known this in August. You are interpreting the sources in a teleological way: the end for the victim was y and therefore everything preceding y must have pointed to y. But everything did not have to point to y before y happened. The killer took the chances he got. We only see the murders but the killer had his own problems and events in his own life that influenced his thinking and planning.

And we can not alter history and ask "What would have happened if Joe did not move out?" This is just how the past works. It leaves sources to us and we interpret the sources. And there is no reason to think that Mary Jane Kelly could not have been replaced with another victim.

Regards, Pierre

[MysterySinger]

If his goal was to cause sensation on the day of the parade, if it hadn't been MJK it would most likely have been another lady murdered.

[Paddy Goose]

So the problem for us is

Pierre you did not tell us the name of your secret suspect.

So the problem for us is we don't know what you're talking about.

[Pierre]

Hi,

As a historian I do believe that our only chance to find Jack the Ripper is the sources from the past. These sources must be produced by the killer himself. Otherwise they can not be connected to the murders.

What I think we have to do is to find and understand the sources produced by a murderer who is communicating with people. This is very difficult, since some sources from 1888 are lost and since our understanding is biased by post modern thinking. Nevertheless I think it is the only way forward.

The sources must not be in written form. The important thing is that they are greetings from the past.

"The overall conclusions drawn add to our current knowledge base on serial murderers. Gibson (2004) finds that a “consistent compulsion to communicate characterizes these serial killers” (p. 209). In most cases, communicating with society and law enforcement was imperative for the selected killers examined. In their communications they left clues, taunted and insulted law enforcement, re-injured victims’ loved ones, threatened to kill again, made demands and offered explanations for their behavior (see pp. 210-211). A brief comparative analysis suggests that each killer had different motives to communicate (e.g. a form of venting). In fact, “it is what they disclose about themselves that reveals a greater reality” (quoting Joel Norris (1988), p. 212)." http://www.ccja-acjp.ca/en/cjcr100/cjcr167.html

Regards, Pierre

I agree with this.

Pierre