Punishment

[Pierre]

With all the objections to speculation that seem to be arising we might as well shut down Casebook now, because I'm afraid that I for one doubt we will ever have anything else.

Relax, GUT. Better times must come. Let´s not give up! Have some tea!

Kind regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

"Could have"? Gee! There we have the old ghost of Potentiality again: Boo!

Who´s opinion? Mr Couldhavedoneit´s? Did he have opinions? Oh. Do you have any data source for that?

I must say, putting opinion´s into dead people´s heads is a mighty difficult task. I do not want to sound "arrogant", but please David, I do expect more from you.

"Cough, cough! Sorry! Trying to drink my tea. Had Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and poor Kelly "betrayed the freemasons"?

I think I´ll need a rest now.

"in some way". I see. So that is the level on which you are arguing for an hypothesis now.

"Posed a threat"? Destitutes with teeth missing in their mouths, walking around drunk in the streets of Spitalfields? Posing a threat to the big institution? Really.

Have a nice evening, David. Perhaps you need a rest too.

I don't know why you are asking me for a data source Pierre. Especially when you haven't provided any in support of your hanging, drawing and quartering theory. I'm not advocating anything. What I'm doing is pointing out that the notion that the murders were carried out as masonic punishments has as much, if not more, and probably much more, validity that the theory you have been offering the forum in this thread.

A prostitute is often in a unique position to know secrets about someone. Do you think wealthy and important men did not use prostitutes? I'm afraid there are no "data sources" about the clients of any of the murdered prostitutes but they only needed to be in possession of a secret about an important man (who was a freemason) which they could have acquired themselves or been told by a friend and then attempted to blackmail that man to have posed a threat.

I appreciate that you don't like this theory because the masonic punishments are closer to the way the Ripper murders were carried out than the way men convicted of treason were punished prior to the nineteenth century and perhaps that's why you feel you need a rest to recover from the shock.

[GUT]

Relax, GUT. Better times must come. Let´s not give up! Have some tea!

Kind regards, Pierre

I don't drink tea somill pass thanks as I try to do on most of what you post.

[Shaggyrand]

With all the objections to speculation that seem to be arising we might as well shut down Casebook now, because I'm afraid that I for one doubt we will ever have anything else.

Come on mow, GUT. We'll always have... Uh... Waitaminnute... I just had it... Um... Lewis Carroll's ink, perhaps? Paris, maybe? Arguing established minutia or whatever. Like the actual temperature of the fire in Kelly's grate.

[GUT]

Come on mow, GUT. We'll always have... Uh... Waitaminnute... I just had it... Um... Lewis Carroll's ink, perhaps? Paris, maybe? Arguing established minutia or whatever. Like the actual temperature of the fire in Kelly's grate.

I meant who jack was.

But even those things such as temp etc will be could haves

Let's be honest after 127+ years and all the lost material, plus the sheer number of suspects that are still a leat arguable, you're not even going too get a majority verdict.

[David Orsam]

Destitutes with teeth missing in their mouths, walking around drunk in the streets of Spitalfields? Posing a threat to the big institution? Really.

I should have responded directly to this.

Clearly Pierre you haven't read your Ultimate Sourcebook properly. Look at the inquest evidence of Joseph Barnett about Mary Kelly. I'll underline a couple of bits to assist you.

"When she left Cardiff she said she came to London. In London she was first in a gay house in the West End of the Town. A gentleman there asked her to go to France. She described to me she went to France."

This was only four years before her death. Destitutes with teeth missing in their mouths did not normally get invited to France by gentlemen.

[wigngown]

Hi David,
Have you read Bruce Robinsons book 'They all love Jack'? Robinson covers the Masonic aspects of the Murders in quite some detail.
Best regards.

[wigngown]

Hi David,
Good point. Even today, Prostitues from, let's say the very lower end of Society are visited by clients from the upper end of society. Any suggestion that professionals don't like a bit of rough is as wrong today as I suspect it was in 1888.
Best regards.

[Errata]

Hi David,
Good point. Even today, Prostitues from, let's say the very lower end of Society are visited by clients from the upper end of society. Any suggestion that professionals don't like a bit of rough is as wrong today as I suspect it was in 1888.
Best regards.

Is it about what professionals like? They aren't in it for themselves after all. One would more accurately state that they would be willing if the price covered the resultant loss of business..

[David Orsam]

Hi David,
Have you read Bruce Robinsons book 'They all love Jack'? Robinson covers the Masonic aspects of the Murders in quite some detail.
Best regards.

I've not only read it, I've written an article about it which can be found here:

http://www.orsam.co.uk/theyalllovebruce.htm

As for the Masonic aspects, I don't really feel he added much from what was in Stephen Knight's 1976 book, 'Jack The Ripper: The Final Solution', which had a more enjoyable, if equally implausible, conspiracy theory.

[wigngown]

Thank you David. I'll read your article, best regards.

[wigngown]

Hi Errata,
By Professional I mean people (Clients) who are on the face of it of a respectable social standing & have responsible occupations who use Prostitues from the Lower end of their trade. I'm not in any way judging these women.
Best Regards.

[Pierre]

I should have responded directly to this.

Clearly Pierre you haven't read your Ultimate Sourcebook properly. Look at the inquest evidence of Joseph Barnett about Mary Kelly. I'll underline a couple of bits to assist you.

"When she left Cardiff she said she came to London. In London she was first in a gay house in the West End of the Town. A gentleman there asked her to go to France. She described to me she went to France."

This was only four years before her death. Destitutes with teeth missing in their mouths did not normally get invited to France by gentlemen.

Hi David,

Scientifically you are getting into trouble now.

Firstly, it is a secondary source for "events" in MJK´s life and this means that the contents of the source are not reliable. (It is a primary source for the inquest statements but not for events in her life.)

So what do we need? Primary sources showing us MJK had actually travelled to France with some "gentleman". (Definition problem here as well).

Secondly, you can not generalize from a secondary source containing a narrative about a prostitute going to France to the Free Masons.

Regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

Scientifically you are getting into trouble now.

Firstly, it is a secondary source for "events" in MJK´s life and this means that the contents of the source are not reliable. (It is a primary source for the inquest statements but not for events in her life.)

So what do we need? Primary sources showing us MJK had actually travelled to France with some "gentleman". (Definition problem here as well).

Secondly, you can not generalize from a secondary source containing a narrative about a prostitute going to France to the Free Masons.

You write such a post and think that I'm getting into trouble?!!!!

[Pierre]

You write such a post and think that I'm getting into trouble?!!!!

You are not fooling many.

Regards, Pierre