Best evidence for left/right/mixed-handedness

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, they can.
For example, in the McKenzie case the doctor who saw the body in situ and performed the post mortem clearly states in his report that the victim was forced down to the ground and held there by a hand on the chest as her throat was cut.

You clearly haven't read Dr Biggs comments with regards to these issues with regards to this specific topic

Q. The doctors in their reports offer opinions as to in which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders. Are these opinions reliable or simply guesswork?

A. In answer to your question, it is really impossible to say with certainty how the wounds were inflicted in terms of ‘reconstructing’ events from the appearance of wounds. This is something that used to be quite ‘popular’ even up until relatively late on in the 20thcentury, with pathologists stating confidently that a left-handed dwarf with a limp inflicted the injury from behind using a specific knife, etc.

Nowadays it is accepted that there is so much variation that in such cases, apart from a few ‘extreme’ scenarios that can be more-or-less excluded, just about anything is possible.

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping…) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on.

Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), and nobody can be certain about a ‘reconstruction’ now based on photos / medical records. If a number of envisaged scenarios are actually ‘possible’, then nobody can really argue in favour of a particular one any more than another.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

Jon,

My own views on this have been greatly influenced by Article Cut Throat by Karyo Magellan,

It seems clear that the wounds appear to come from the same direction with the exception of MJK. that of course is not the same as saying which hand was used, just the direction of the cut. which of course may hint at the hand used, but is not conclusive.

Steve

Hi Steve

Yes, I think read that a while back.
Myself, I take each murder on it`s own merit, using the doctors post mortem notes and crime scene info.

Which victims does Magellan refer to when he states " the wounds with exception of MJK" ?

[Jon Guy]

You clearly haven't read Dr Biggs comments with regards to these issues with regards to this specific topic

Q. The doctors in their reports offer opinions as to in which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders. Are these opinions reliable or simply guesswork?

The thread is about best evidence for left/right/mixed handedness NOT which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders.

What exactly did Biggs have to say about Dr Phillips notes on Alice McKenzie?

A. In answer to your question, it is really impossible to say with certainty how the wounds were inflicted in terms of ‘reconstructing’ events from the appearance of wounds. This is something that used to be quite ‘popular’ even up until relatively late on in the 20thcentury, with pathologists stating confidently that a left-handed dwarf with a limp inflicted the injury from behind using a specific knife, etc. ?

Who is trying to "reconstruct" events from the appearance of wounds ?
That`s what I meant when I say his comments were too general.

Nowadays it is accepted that there is so much variation that in such cases, apart from a few ‘extreme’ scenarios that can be more-or-less excluded, just about anything is possible.

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping…) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on. ?

Exactly, as I say, study each murder on it`s own merit.

Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), ?

Yes, these people "who were present at the time " are the only people I look to as they kindly left behind post mortem notes and descriptions of the crime scene.

[Trevor Marriott]

The thread is about best evidence for left/right/mixed handedness NOT which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders.

What exactly did Biggs have to say about Dr Phillips notes on Alice McKenzie?



Who is trying to "reconstruct" events from the appearance of wounds ?
That`s what I meant when I say his comments were too general.



Exactly, as I say, study each murder on it`s own merit.



Yes, these people "who were present at the time " are the only people I look to as they kindly left behind post mortem notes and descriptions of the crime scene.

But you have been told that those medical opinions given back then are now looked on by modern day forensic experts as unreliable, and were nothing more than at times guesswork, That applies to all.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

But you have been told that those medical opinions given back then are now looked on by modern day forensic experts as unreliable, and were nothing more than at times guesswork, That applies to all.

Which medical opinions, Trevor ? All of them ?
Surely not working out which hand the bruising caused by fingers belonged to ?

As I said, Dr Biggs opinion is too general, which is a shame as there a number of points he may have found illuminating.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Yes, I think read that a while back.
Myself, I take each murder on it`s own merit, using the doctors post mortem notes and crime scene info.

Which victims does Magellan refer to when he states " the wounds with exception of MJK" ?

Jon
He does not say that, I was summarizing.
He examines every neck wound wound, presenting diagrams to indicated the damage, muscles and vessels cut.
In all but Kelly, he all the C5 plus Mackenzie and Coles, the wound starts on the left of the neck; in the Kelly case it starts on the right, which given her position on the bed is understandable.

Very useful article for understanding the neck wounds.
It demonstrates clearly that only Chapman was close to decapitation.

Steve

[Jon Guy]

Jon
He does not say that, I was summarizing.
He examines every neck wound wound, presenting diagrams to indicated the damage, muscles and vessels cut.
In all but Kelly, he all the C5 plus Mackenzie and Coles, the wound starts on the left of the neck; in the Kelly case it starts on the right, which given her position on the bed is understandable.

Very useful article for understanding the neck wounds.
It demonstrates clearly that only Chapman was close to decapitation.

Steve

Hi Steve

Does he attempt to answer which hand of the killer wielded the knife ?

I do disagree with him on his point that (if I remember correctly) Kelly was a victim of a copy cat.
Because, apart from Kelly`s extra mutilations, she and Chapman both had their necks completely cut right around, had the surface of their abdomen`s removed in 3 flaps, and their bodies were found in the same position.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, they can.
For example, in the McKenzie case the doctor who saw the body in situ and performed the post mortem clearly states in his report that the victim was forced down to the ground and held there by a hand on the chest as her throat was cut.

That was the doctors opinion only, but as stated modern day experts tell us that with what is now known in the 21st century, those opinions were at times nothing more than guesswork, just like estimating times of death, just like saying the killer was left handed. None can be conclusively proven. But these statements about these certain issues by modern day experts seem for some hard to accept

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Jon

Very useful article for understanding the neck wounds.
It demonstrates clearly that only Chapman was close to decapitation.

Steve

I think you will find Nicholls,and Eddowes were as well, and when you look at those wounds, its hard to imagine how they could have been inflicted if the victims were laying on their backs.

Of course if there were multiple killers then each may have killed in a different fashion of the ones that I think were linked you have mentioned them Chapman. Nicholls. Eddowes

My view is the throats were cut from behind while they were still standing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Does he attempt to answer which hand of the killer wielded the knife ?

I do disagree with him on his point that (if I remember correctly) Kelly was a victim of a copy cat.
Because, apart from Kelly`s extra mutilations, she and Chapman both had their necks completely cut right around, had the surface of their abdomen`s removed in 3 flaps, and their bodies were found in the same position.

Jon

He very strongly suggests that the killer may have been right handed, and standing behind, this is where I part company with his views, could easily have been to the side or straddling for some of the murders.
With regards to Kelly he suggests it was probably in the left hand. but is not conclusive on that point

He does not claim a "copy cat" for Kelly but certainly speculates on a separate killer.

One point, the diagrams, if they are accurate show that Kelly's throat was not cut right round, but it certainly hit the vertebrae. The vessels on the left hand side appear to be intact.

In the Chapman case all the vessels were severed and only the skin and muscle at the rear of the vertebrae were intact.

At the end of the day, I view the article as useful for the wounds, the rest is speculation.

Steve
steve

[Jon Guy]

Jon

He very strongly suggests that the killer may have been right handed, and standing behind, this is where I part company with his views, could easily have been to the side or straddling. With regards to Kelly he suggests it was probably in the left hand. but is not conclusive on that point

He does not claim a "copy cat" for Kelly but certainly speculates on a separate killer.

One point, the diagrams, if they are accurate show that Kelly's throat was not cut right round, but it certainly hit the vertebrae. The vessels on the left hand side appear to be intact.

In the Chapman case all the vessels were severed and only the skin and muscle at the rear of the vertebrae were intact.

At the end of the day, I view the article as useful for the wounds, the rest is speculation.

Steve
steve

Hi Steve

From the pm notes we know that Kelly`s throat was cut right around
This shows the importance of using the primary sources.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

From the pm notes we know that Kelly`s throat was cut right around
This shows the importance of using the primary sources.

Jon

I will have to disagree with you there

Bond said:

" The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis.

The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage."

at the inquest Phillips stated:

"The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. "


Neither Doctor says all the way round, there is no mention of the left carotid in either report.
its is a question of interpretation or am a missing something Jon?

if I am happy to accept that.

steve

[Jon Guy]

Jon

I will have to disagree with you there

Bond said:

" The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis.

The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage."

at the inquest Phillips stated:

"The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. "


Neither Doctor says all the way round, there is no mention of the left carotid in either report.
its is a question of interpretation or am a missing something Jon?

if I am happy to accept that.

steve

Hi Steve

Dr Bond: The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera. The breasts were cut off, the arms mutilated by several jagged wounds and the face hacked beyond recognition of the features. The tissues of the neck were severed all round down to the bone.

[Elamarna]

I think you will find Nicholls,and Eddowes were as well, and when you look at those wounds, its hard to imagine how they could have been inflicted if the victims were laying on their backs.

Of course if there were multiple killers then each may have killed in a different fashion of the ones that I think were linked you have mentioned them Chapman. Nicholls. Eddowes

My view is the throats were cut from behind while they were still standing.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor,

yes they were certainly closer to decapitation than Kelly or Stride, Eddowes in particular is reasonable close to Chapman.
I would therefore amend what I said and say that Eddowes was close to decapitation, but no so close a Chapman.

I understand your comments about it being difficult to inflect such wounds on a body on the ground.however if they were already subdued, which has been suggested often, it would be possible I think.

To summarize

Nichols, unable to say if from behind or side.
Chapman, probably from behind, if conscious when throat cut. if already subdued then probably from the side.
Stride from behind
Eddowes same as Chapman
Kelly from the side.
Mackenzie similar to Eddowes and Chapmans.

Regards

Steve

[Jon Guy]

My view is the throats were cut from behind while they were still standing.

If the throats were cut when standing their would be blood down the front of the victim, and also there is a strong case that Nichols and Chapman had their breathing interfered with (ie suffocated or strangled) - would they be standing up after been strangled, smothered or throttled ?