How to sort the Ripper

[Errata]

So murder/mutilator Kelly is the same as subway pusher Kelly? That's a hell of a thing. He probably wasn't confined to just those two styles either if he had that level of rage.

[Robert]

I think there was only the one Kelly. There doesn't seem to be much in the papers about him at all, but here is a piece from the Times Sept 24 1983.

I have seen two opposing statements about the Weighly murder - one says that Kelly was convicted, the other that he wasn't. I cannot even find Weighly in the death registers for 1977.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Yes, this confused me initially! There are in fact two completely different serial killers, but with similar names: Kieron Kelly and Kieran Kelly. Kieron Kelly was a mutilator, whereas Kieran Kelly's MO was pushing his victims in front of underground trains.

Have you also considered Anthony Hardy, The Camden Ripper? He was certainly a very odd serial killer, who admired Jack the Ripper. His signature included satanic ritual, dismemberment and necrophilia.

Seriously? Two guys with almost the same name? That's creepy. What's creepier is that I know a set of twins named Kienan and Kelly. I'll never be in a room alone with them again.

Hardy the "no comment" guy? I have no idea why that's what brain seizes on. But yeah, I actually looked pretty hard at all the Rippers, figuring that a similar name might mean more similarities that gruesome murders. I disqualified him because sex was definitely involved and he was a body dumper. But he may have kept a piece? I think? Anyway. Still didn't tick off the boxes. It sounds easy, but apparently it's not. I'm even casually keeping track of mutilating non raping body hoarders, just in case I need to research that side of it, and it's still not a lot of names.

I wonder what would happen if I looked at women?

[Errata]

Hi,

Serial killer typologies have been strongly criticized by researchers for a long time. These killers rarely match the theoretical models and there are often overlaps between operational definitions of types of serial killers and problems with understanding their MO:s with these typologies as tools. Even the concept of MO has been called into questions by researchers.

But I have a suggestion, since you seem to work rather inductively with comparing Jack the Ripper to others. Try and hypothesize that Jack the Ripper was also the dismemberment murderer in 1888 and 1889. Perhaps you will get some interesting results!

I wish you the best of luck.

Kind regards, Pierre

My model absolutely does not preclude the idea that he could have been the Torso Killer as well. All I ask for in a serial killer to compare to the Ripper is that
1: they are a mutilator. I don't even discriminate between post mortem or peri mortem. Different battle for a different day.
2: They not be a rapist.
3: They abandoned the corpses of the people they killed.

That's all the search criteria. Now because I don't have a foolproof way of sorting a killer who breaks into the home of their victim and kills there, in terms of body disposition, I don't count those. But not from any philosophy, just I need more information than I am likely going to get.

To compare to the Ripper, I need a serial killer to tick those three boxes. And only those three boxes. And I've found one guy. Apparently because (and I'm guessing here) if you care enough to mutilate someone, you probably care about the corpse produced as well.

We know that no matter what the motivation of the Ripper, he did not rape his victims, and there was no sign he tried. So even if it was done for a sexual thrill, he didn't try to consummate it. Which makes sense, because almost every rapist dumps the body. But purposeful mutilators (as opposed to frenzied stabbers who are fulfilling a different need) tend to be body hoarders, and when they aren't they are dumpers. Leaving me with one guy, as I said. Now if a state is going to produce another candidate, I believe it will be Texas, mostly because I have a generally dim view of the state.

So either my characterization of Jack being a body abandoner is wrong, and it might be, or this sub type of serial killer is rare. Or both. Although there is one other guy that fits the criteria, so I've proved it's possible to be this rare combination. But mind you that even changing the classification to a body hoarder isn't going to open up the field a lot, because Jack still wouldn't be a rapist, which a majority of body hoarders are as well. Except Gein notably. Maybe. I mean, a box of vulvas so it's hard to imagine that was an entirely coitus free house.

Ever stand back and read what you just typed and wonder how your life arrived to the point where you would be typing "box of vulvas"?

[John G]

Hi,

But since an hypothesis of the same killer or killers for the whole period is difficult to construct, it is much easier to use the cases in 88-89 as a sample. Due to its shorter time span it will probably also be more reliable.

Regards, Pierre

It would also be almost certainly wrong, which is why I think you can safely discard your theory. Sorry, but there you have it.

[John G]

I probably should have said that better - the same city. And I don't think it should be so quickly discarded as a theory.

London had a population in 1888 of around of 5.6 million people, so I don't think it would be that unlikely that two serial killers would be operating in the same city over a period of several years.

There is no proof that any of the Torso victims were murdered, and several of them were dismembered in different ways, indicating different perpetrators. The signatures of JtR and the Torso perpetrator were also radically different.

[John G]

Wow. The guy in the newspaper article is so not the guy described in he murderpedia article. Which leads me to believe that murderpedia conflated one homophobic serial killer's name with another's crimes, but it's the crimes described by murderpedia I am interested in. Either that or he had two very different murder methods. Or there was a Kieran Kelly and Keiron Kelly with very similar problems, which seems improbable. And if you wonder why I can't reconcile the two accounts, I have a hard time believing that Kelly managed to shove a broken bottle into a man's rectum, slashing his throat and genitals before pushing him in front of a train. I can't see how the guy gets on the platform, much less the tracks.

Well that's irritating. Appalling, morally, irritating personally.

Finished the UK. No one else quite like the Ripper, though the Yorkshire Ripper probably comes closest. You guys don't have nearly as many spree killers as we do. Probably equal on parricide, but statistically far few incidents of going postal. Good job. I don't know if anyone has congratulated you guys for that.

Oh, and I take back what I said about Florida. Texas is definitely the place to go for serial killers.

Hi Errata,

Yes, this confused me initially! There are in fact two completely different serial killers, but with similar names: Kieron Kelly and Kieran Kelly. Kieron Kelly was a mutilator, whereas Kieran Kelly's MO was pushing his victims in front of underground trains.

Have you also considered Anthony Hardy, The Camden Ripper? He was certainly a very odd serial killer, who admired Jack the Ripper. His signature included satanic ritual, dismemberment and necrophilia.

[SuspectZero]

They weren't operating in the same area, however. Only one of the Torso victims was discovered in Whitechapel, and we have no idea where she was abducted. Moreover, the Torso crimes took place over a much longer period, 1873-1889, and almost certainly involved more than one perpetrator.

I probably should have said that better - the same city. And I don't think it should be so quickly discarded as a theory.

[Pierre]

They weren't operating in the same area, however. Only one of the Torso victims was discovered in Whitechapel, and we have no idea where she was abducted. Moreover, the Torso crimes took place over a much longer period, 1873-1889, and almost certainly involved more than one perpetrator.

Hi,

But since an hypothesis of the same killer or killers for the whole period is difficult to construct, it is much easier to use the cases in 88-89 as a sample. Due to its shorter time span it will probably also be more reliable.

Regards, Pierre

[John G]

It is not inconceivable that JTR was also the torso killer. Given the nature of the killings, the fact that no one saw the killer or the dumping of the bodies, and the gruesomeness as well as boldness of the perpetrator makes them very similar. It would also be an amazing coincidence and probably statistically highly unlikely that you would have had 2 serial killers operating (excuse the pun) in the same area at the same time.

They weren't operating in the same area, however. Only one of the Torso victims was discovered in Whitechapel, and we have no idea where she was abducted. Moreover, the Torso crimes took place over a much longer period, 1873-1889, and almost certainly involved more than one perpetrator.

[John G]

Hi,

Serial killer typologies have been strongly criticized by researchers for a long time. These killers rarely match the theoretical models and there are often overlaps between operational definitions of types of serial killers and problems with understanding their MO:s with these typologies as tools. Even the concept of MO has been called into questions by researchers.

But I have a suggestion, since you seem to work rather inductively with comparing Jack the Ripper to others. Try and hypothesize that Jack the Ripper was also the dismemberment murderer in 1888 and 1889. Perhaps you will get some interesting results!

I wish you the best of luck.

Kind regards, Pierre

"The second victim of the Thames series was discovered in September of 1888, in the middle of the hunt for the Whitechapel Murder. On September 11, an arm belonging to a female was discovered in the Thames off Pimlico. On September 28, another arm was found along the Lambeth-road and on October 2, the torso of a female, minus the head, was discovered. The torso was discovered on the grounds of the construction site for the New Scotland Yard building and was dubbed by the press the "Whitehall Mystery." Scotland Yard had a murder mystery to solve even before their new building was complete.

The medical men involved, along with Dr. Bond, agreed that a degree of medical knowledge had been used, but they could give no evidence pointing to the method of death. Dr. Charles Hibbert, who examined one of the arms, stated that, "I thought the arm was cut off by a person who, while he was not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing-who knew where the joints were and cut them pretty regularly." At the inquest, the jury, despite the fact that an obvious murder had taken place, returned a verdict of "Found Dead."

Eighteen eighty-eight is considered the "Year of the Ripper" in the chronological accounts of the history of London. Within his ten-week reign, the Ripper had managed to shake Victorian London to its core. Yet, by the end of the year, interest in Jack the Ripper began to dwindle rapidly. By June of 1889, almost seven months had passed without a Ripper type murder, and hopes were being entertained that his bloody wrath was over. The same could not be said for the Thames series, which was about to begin again.

On June 4, part of a female torso was fished out of the Thames at Horselydown, while at about the same time; a left leg to the body was plucked from under the Albert-bridge, Chelsea. Within the next week, numerous other parts of the same body were recovered in or near the Thames.

The London Times on June 11, reported that the remains found so far "are as follows: Tuesday, left leg and thigh off Battersea, lower part of the abdomen at Horselydown; Thursday, the liver near Nine Elms, upper part of the body in Battersea-Park, neck and shoulders off Battersea; Friday, right foot and part of leg at Wandsworth, left leg and foot at Limehouse; Saturday, left arm and hand at Bankside, buttocks and pelvis off Battersea, right thigh at Chelsea Embankment, yesterday, right arm and hand at Bankside."

It is an interesting fact that one of the body parts had been purposely thrown over the private railing to the Shelley Estate. It is ironic that Mary Shelley had earlier written a novel entitled Frankenstein, about a monster pieced together by various body parts.

The medical men who examined the pieces agree that some degree of medical skill was involved. At the inquest on June 17, it was stated that, "the division of the parts showed skill and design: not, however, the anatomical skill of a surgeon, but the practical knowledge of a butcher or a knacker. There was a great similarity between the condition, as regarded cutting up, of the remains and that of those found at Rainham, and at the new police building on the Thames Embankment." The London Times of June 5, reported that "in the opinion of the doctors the women had been dead only 48 hours, and the body had been dissected somewhat roughly by a person who must have had some knowledge of the joints of the human body."

Once again, the doctors were unable to provide a means of death. However, this time, the jury was confident in reaching a decision of "Wilful murder against some person or persons unknown." As in the other similar cases, the head of the victim was never found, however, the identity of the victim was clearly established. The body was identified as that of Elizabeth Jackson, a suspected prostitute, from Chelsea. This lead was of little use, as the murder was to remain, as the others, unsolved.

In July, Whitechapel was awakened to the possibility of another Jack the Ripper crime. A known prostitute, Alice McKenzie, was found murdered in the heart of the district. While police and citizens were entertaining the theory that Jack was back in business, the torso killer would strike again, and this time in the Ripper's backyard.

On September 10, Police Constable William Pennett was walking his beat along Pinchin Street, Whitechapel, when he discovered the torso of a female under a railway arch. As in the McKenzie case, this murder created a flurry of police activity in the district. Within minutes of finding the body, the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner of Police, as well as numerous detectives who had been engaged on the Ripper investigation, were on their way to the crime scene. Officially, the police were to place this murder in the same category as the rest, unsolved and of the Thames type."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...o-murders.html

I think this hypothesis is highly unlikely, considering the radically different signatures (and the fact that the killer would have to keep switching between the signatures- an eviscerator who makes no attempt to conceal his victims, and a dismemberer who abducts his victims and then dumps the bodies, retaining the head to prevent identification- which makes no sense at all.) In fact, several of the Torso victims-not proved to be murders-were dismembered in different ways, suggesting that there was even more than one Torso perpetrator.

It seems your "theory", however, is predicated on the assumption that they were one and the same perpetrator so, therefore, I think it is a theory that can be safely discarded.

[SuspectZero]

Hi,

Serial killer typologies have been strongly criticized by researchers for a long time. These killers rarely match the theoretical models and there are often overlaps between operational definitions of types of serial killers and problems with understanding their MO:s with these typologies as tools. Even the concept of MO has been called into questions by researchers.

But I have a suggestion, since you seem to work rather inductively with comparing Jack the Ripper to others. Try and hypothesize that Jack the Ripper was also the dismemberment murderer in 1888 and 1889. Perhaps you will get some interesting results!

I wish you the best of luck.

Kind regards, Pierre

"The second victim of the Thames series was discovered in September of 1888, in the middle of the hunt for the Whitechapel Murder. On September 11, an arm belonging to a female was discovered in the Thames off Pimlico. On September 28, another arm was found along the Lambeth-road and on October 2, the torso of a female, minus the head, was discovered. The torso was discovered on the grounds of the construction site for the New Scotland Yard building and was dubbed by the press the "Whitehall Mystery." Scotland Yard had a murder mystery to solve even before their new building was complete.

The medical men involved, along with Dr. Bond, agreed that a degree of medical knowledge had been used, but they could give no evidence pointing to the method of death. Dr. Charles Hibbert, who examined one of the arms, stated that, "I thought the arm was cut off by a person who, while he was not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing-who knew where the joints were and cut them pretty regularly." At the inquest, the jury, despite the fact that an obvious murder had taken place, returned a verdict of "Found Dead."

Eighteen eighty-eight is considered the "Year of the Ripper" in the chronological accounts of the history of London. Within his ten-week reign, the Ripper had managed to shake Victorian London to its core. Yet, by the end of the year, interest in Jack the Ripper began to dwindle rapidly. By June of 1889, almost seven months had passed without a Ripper type murder, and hopes were being entertained that his bloody wrath was over. The same could not be said for the Thames series, which was about to begin again.

On June 4, part of a female torso was fished out of the Thames at Horselydown, while at about the same time; a left leg to the body was plucked from under the Albert-bridge, Chelsea. Within the next week, numerous other parts of the same body were recovered in or near the Thames.

The London Times on June 11, reported that the remains found so far "are as follows: Tuesday, left leg and thigh off Battersea, lower part of the abdomen at Horselydown; Thursday, the liver near Nine Elms, upper part of the body in Battersea-Park, neck and shoulders off Battersea; Friday, right foot and part of leg at Wandsworth, left leg and foot at Limehouse; Saturday, left arm and hand at Bankside, buttocks and pelvis off Battersea, right thigh at Chelsea Embankment, yesterday, right arm and hand at Bankside."

It is an interesting fact that one of the body parts had been purposely thrown over the private railing to the Shelley Estate. It is ironic that Mary Shelley had earlier written a novel entitled Frankenstein, about a monster pieced together by various body parts.

The medical men who examined the pieces agree that some degree of medical skill was involved. At the inquest on June 17, it was stated that, "the division of the parts showed skill and design: not, however, the anatomical skill of a surgeon, but the practical knowledge of a butcher or a knacker. There was a great similarity between the condition, as regarded cutting up, of the remains and that of those found at Rainham, and at the new police building on the Thames Embankment." The London Times of June 5, reported that "in the opinion of the doctors the women had been dead only 48 hours, and the body had been dissected somewhat roughly by a person who must have had some knowledge of the joints of the human body."

Once again, the doctors were unable to provide a means of death. However, this time, the jury was confident in reaching a decision of "Wilful murder against some person or persons unknown." As in the other similar cases, the head of the victim was never found, however, the identity of the victim was clearly established. The body was identified as that of Elizabeth Jackson, a suspected prostitute, from Chelsea. This lead was of little use, as the murder was to remain, as the others, unsolved.

In July, Whitechapel was awakened to the possibility of another Jack the Ripper crime. A known prostitute, Alice McKenzie, was found murdered in the heart of the district. While police and citizens were entertaining the theory that Jack was back in business, the torso killer would strike again, and this time in the Ripper's backyard.

On September 10, Police Constable William Pennett was walking his beat along Pinchin Street, Whitechapel, when he discovered the torso of a female under a railway arch. As in the McKenzie case, this murder created a flurry of police activity in the district. Within minutes of finding the body, the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner of Police, as well as numerous detectives who had been engaged on the Ripper investigation, were on their way to the crime scene. Officially, the police were to place this murder in the same category as the rest, unsolved and of the Thames type."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...o-murders.html

It is not inconceivable that JTR was also the torso killer. Given the nature of the killings, the fact that no one saw the killer or the dumping of the bodies, and the gruesomeness as well as boldness of the perpetrator makes them very similar. It would also be an amazing coincidence and probably statistically highly unlikely that you would have had 2 serial killers operating (excuse the pun) in the same area at the same time.

[Pierre]

The Preface:

I have been espousing of late the idea that it is more informative to sort serial killers by the way they treat the body than other methods used. It's not my theory, I cannot for the life of me remember whose theory it is, but a very smart person whose name escapes me. When I find it again, I will correctly attribute it.

So the way it boils down is this: There are body hoarders, body dumpers, and body abandoners.

Body hoarder have a relationship with the corpse, to the point that it is almost as, if not far more important than the actual murder itself. Dahmer, Gein, Kemper, all body hoarders.

Body dumpers are just that. They get rid of the body, hiding it (sometimes poorly) either to not get caught or to disassociate themselves from the corpse, or even the crime itself. Bundy, Suff, Ridgeway, all body dumpers.

Body abandoners have no relationship with the body whatsoever. Once he murder is over the corpse has no value, and they simply walk away. Son of Sam is the perfect example,

End of Preface

So how do we sort Jack? It's not entirely clear whether he walked away from the bodies, or whether his intent was to display them in a way (which would put him in the body hoarder category). One of the benefits of sorting serial killers this way is that other behavioral traits tend to line up. Rapists are almost always body dumpers. Mission oriented killers are almost always body abandoners. Body hoarders tend to be at least a little fetish-y, which is not something I necessarily see in Jack, but we'll put the proverbial pin n that. But mission oriented serial killers walk away. It would make sense for Jack to be a body abandoner, which would make him more likely to be a mission oriented killer.

So I got to thinking that when we sort serial killers, we are comparing them to each other. But the usual suspects don't really compare with Jack. Different styles, different treatment of the corpse, different timing. So what do we get if we say that Jack was a body abandoner? Who does he compare to.

So I've been sorting through multiple murderers, looking for body abandoners. My first search was way to broad, so narrowed it down to New York, Florida, and California. And if you fear being serially killed, don't move to Florida. But it was still too much so I just went with New York, mostly because that information was already on my hard drive.

Finding a body abandoner is not easy. I'll just say that. Finding one who is also a mutilator is even harder, and finding a body abandoning mutilator who did not turn himself in is frankly not recommended. Out of hundreds of killers, I found one guy.

We turn in our hymnals now to Murderpedia because I got lazy.
Erno Soto (also called Charlie Chopoff) was a man who became obsessed with the biracial boy his wife conceived while they were separated. And apparently he became incredibly fixated on how this child ruined his life. Every couple of months, Soto would stalk a black child, take them or allow himself to be taken somewhere private, stab the child dozens of times, cut the penis off and walk away with it.

I give you our Jack Analog. What we see in Soto we can expect in Jack. In doing so I am challenging one of my own fairly strong assertions that Jack was sane. Because Soto was not. He was in and out of hospitals, mostly through his own wishes. But Soto suffered from a dangerous obsession, one I am not at all convinced that Victorian medicine was equipped to recognize. Had Soto told his story to any Victorian doctor, his rage would be seen as reasonable. Even expected. And psychiatry had a hard time recognizing the problem with any obsession over a person in someone's life. It' why we didn't get anti stalking laws until almost the 90s. So I'm not sure Soto would be seen as ill.

There was another man, Vincent Johnson, who also fit a lot of my criteria (though he was not a mutilator. He was the Willamsburg Strangler. He targeted prostitutes every couple of months, was a mission oriented serial killer, similar timeline, body abandoner. I think he's also worth a look, despite not being a mutilator.

Anyway, I leave this here for perusal and comment. I'm going to finish looking through California and god help me Florida. But I think the reason we have a problem coming up with a comparison for Jack is that the most important aspects of his crimes are relatively rare. And certainly don't appear in the famous serial killers we know to compare him to. By looking for a different aspect of his crime, I think we have a better chance at finding guys like him. So we can maybe understand him better.

Hi,

Serial killer typologies have been strongly criticized by researchers for a long time. These killers rarely match the theoretical models and there are often overlaps between operational definitions of types of serial killers and problems with understanding their MO:s with these typologies as tools. Even the concept of MO has been called into questions by researchers.

But I have a suggestion, since you seem to work rather inductively with comparing Jack the Ripper to others. Try and hypothesize that Jack the Ripper was also the dismemberment murderer in 1888 and 1889. Perhaps you will get some interesting results!

I wish you the best of luck.

Kind regards, Pierre

"The second victim of the Thames series was discovered in September of 1888, in the middle of the hunt for the Whitechapel Murder. On September 11, an arm belonging to a female was discovered in the Thames off Pimlico. On September 28, another arm was found along the Lambeth-road and on October 2, the torso of a female, minus the head, was discovered. The torso was discovered on the grounds of the construction site for the New Scotland Yard building and was dubbed by the press the "Whitehall Mystery." Scotland Yard had a murder mystery to solve even before their new building was complete.

The medical men involved, along with Dr. Bond, agreed that a degree of medical knowledge had been used, but they could give no evidence pointing to the method of death. Dr. Charles Hibbert, who examined one of the arms, stated that, "I thought the arm was cut off by a person who, while he was not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing-who knew where the joints were and cut them pretty regularly." At the inquest, the jury, despite the fact that an obvious murder had taken place, returned a verdict of "Found Dead."

Eighteen eighty-eight is considered the "Year of the Ripper" in the chronological accounts of the history of London. Within his ten-week reign, the Ripper had managed to shake Victorian London to its core. Yet, by the end of the year, interest in Jack the Ripper began to dwindle rapidly. By June of 1889, almost seven months had passed without a Ripper type murder, and hopes were being entertained that his bloody wrath was over. The same could not be said for the Thames series, which was about to begin again.

On June 4, part of a female torso was fished out of the Thames at Horselydown, while at about the same time; a left leg to the body was plucked from under the Albert-bridge, Chelsea. Within the next week, numerous other parts of the same body were recovered in or near the Thames.

The London Times on June 11, reported that the remains found so far "are as follows: Tuesday, left leg and thigh off Battersea, lower part of the abdomen at Horselydown; Thursday, the liver near Nine Elms, upper part of the body in Battersea-Park, neck and shoulders off Battersea; Friday, right foot and part of leg at Wandsworth, left leg and foot at Limehouse; Saturday, left arm and hand at Bankside, buttocks and pelvis off Battersea, right thigh at Chelsea Embankment, yesterday, right arm and hand at Bankside."

It is an interesting fact that one of the body parts had been purposely thrown over the private railing to the Shelley Estate. It is ironic that Mary Shelley had earlier written a novel entitled Frankenstein, about a monster pieced together by various body parts.

The medical men who examined the pieces agree that some degree of medical skill was involved. At the inquest on June 17, it was stated that, "the division of the parts showed skill and design: not, however, the anatomical skill of a surgeon, but the practical knowledge of a butcher or a knacker. There was a great similarity between the condition, as regarded cutting up, of the remains and that of those found at Rainham, and at the new police building on the Thames Embankment." The London Times of June 5, reported that "in the opinion of the doctors the women had been dead only 48 hours, and the body had been dissected somewhat roughly by a person who must have had some knowledge of the joints of the human body."

Once again, the doctors were unable to provide a means of death. However, this time, the jury was confident in reaching a decision of "Wilful murder against some person or persons unknown." As in the other similar cases, the head of the victim was never found, however, the identity of the victim was clearly established. The body was identified as that of Elizabeth Jackson, a suspected prostitute, from Chelsea. This lead was of little use, as the murder was to remain, as the others, unsolved.

In July, Whitechapel was awakened to the possibility of another Jack the Ripper crime. A known prostitute, Alice McKenzie, was found murdered in the heart of the district. While police and citizens were entertaining the theory that Jack was back in business, the torso killer would strike again, and this time in the Ripper's backyard.

On September 10, Police Constable William Pennett was walking his beat along Pinchin Street, Whitechapel, when he discovered the torso of a female under a railway arch. As in the McKenzie case, this murder created a flurry of police activity in the district. Within minutes of finding the body, the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner of Police, as well as numerous detectives who had been engaged on the Ripper investigation, were on their way to the crime scene. Officially, the police were to place this murder in the same category as the rest, unsolved and of the Thames type."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...o-murders.html

[Errata]

Hi Errata

He's not generally known over here either. He seems to have killed men only.

Here are a couple of links. The best bet seems to be Mr Platt's book.

http://irishpost.co.uk/irelands-only-known-serial-killer-kieran-kelly-pushed-16-people-in-front-of-the-tube-in-london/

http://murderpedia.org/male.K/k/kelly-kieron.htm

Wow. The guy in the newspaper article is so not the guy described in he murderpedia article. Which leads me to believe that murderpedia conflated one homophobic serial killer's name with another's crimes, but it's the crimes described by murderpedia I am interested in. Either that or he had two very different murder methods. Or there was a Kieran Kelly and Keiron Kelly with very similar problems, which seems improbable. And if you wonder why I can't reconcile the two accounts, I have a hard time believing that Kelly managed to shove a broken bottle into a man's rectum, slashing his throat and genitals before pushing him in front of a train. I can't see how the guy gets on the platform, much less the tracks.

Well that's irritating. Appalling, morally, irritating personally.

Finished the UK. No one else quite like the Ripper, though the Yorkshire Ripper probably comes closest. You guys don't have nearly as many spree killers as we do. Probably equal on parricide, but statistically far few incidents of going postal. Good job. I don't know if anyone has congratulated you guys for that.

Oh, and I take back what I said about Florida. Texas is definitely the place to go for serial killers.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

He's not generally known over here either. He seems to have killed men only.

Here are a couple of links. The best bet seems to be Mr Platt's book.

http://irishpost.co.uk/irelands-only-known-serial-killer-kieran-kelly-pushed-16-people-in-front-of-the-tube-in-london/

http://murderpedia.org/male.K/k/kelly-kieron.htm