JTR a Pranzini Copycat?

[Joshua Rogan]

Joshua, the details of this museum are in my article:

http://www.searchingfortruthwithabro.../130Wax_v2.pdf

Before this, everyone thought the museum was the same location as where they found John Derek, the Elephant man, in 1884, but it's not. Read it.

Sincerely,

Mike

If this link doesn't work, I posted it in post number 5 on the first page.

Er....I did read it, it was very interesting. Do you get paid more if I read it again?

[Fisherman]

As there are between any number of other "torso killings"... dismembering a corpse in an effort to conceal a murder is, sadly, far from being rare.

Ah, Gareth - but I think most people would agree that the torso killings were no efforts to conceal any murders. Quite the opposite - in these cases, the killer took great care to reveal the deeds instead! Multiple dumping places, floating some of the parts down the Thames, throwing a part into Shelley´s place etcetera.
So the dismembering was NOT about hiding what was done, not at all.
We must also keep in mind that many of the things that were done to the torso victims was not in keeping with a mere wish to hide away the deeds. Cutting away the abdominal wall on Jackson - how would that serve to conceal the murder? You tell me.

Now, let´s turn to the first torso victim, the Battersea torso in 1873. What happened to her? Well, she had the skin cut away from the skull. The skull was never found, but the cut away face was.
How does such a thing relate to the anatomical Venuses, potentially? Well, have a look at this:

https://twitter.com/obsessedwskulls/status/472527935224557568

...and you will have food for thought.

The torso victims joints were disarticulated in a very skilled manner. But they were NOT disarticulated the way a medical man would have done it. They were the work of somebody who was skilled with the knife, but not somebody who worked as a surgeon.

The Jackson, Chapman and Kelly abdominal flaps make it very probable that they were killed by the same man. The links are there with the other cases, the likenesses and the possible inspiration from the anatomical Venuses.

We may well be looking at exactly where the inspiration came from this time. We may well be close to revealing the joint identity between the Ripper and the Torso man. And we may well have the answer to who could have done it all in Charles Lechmere.

Things are moving fast now.

[Sam Flynn]

Ah. Gareth - but I think most people would agree that the torso killings were no efforts to conceal any murders.

I don't mean concealing the literal fact that a murder has been committed, Fish. For clarity, I meant that dismemberment (esp. in the days before DNA tests) is a means to conceal the identity of a murder victim; it also conceals the location of a murder by making the body more transportable.

In the end, it really adds up to concealing the murder, in that "torso kilings" make it harder to trace the victim, the perpetrator, and the scene of the original crime. For this reason, it's a not-uncommon way for a killer to dispose of a body.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't mean concealing the literal fact that a murder has been committed.

In the same way, when we speak of the Ripper murders being "undetected", we don't mean that they literally went unnoticed!

[Fisherman]

I don't mean concealing the literal fact that a murder has been committed, Fish. For clarity, I meant that dismemberment (esp. in the days before DNA tests) is a means to conceal the identity of a murder victim; it also conceals the location of a murder by making the body more transportable.

In the end, it really adds up to concealing the murder, in that "torso kilings" make it harder to trace the victim, the perpetrator, and the scene of the original crime. For this reason, it's a not-uncommon way for a killer to dispose of a body.

You spoke of concealing murders - as opposed to concealing the identities of the victims, Gareth. And the murders were not concealed.
Now that you explain yourself, I agree - there is, for example, the fact that the heads were normally missing from the torso victims, and that looks like a way of concealing the identity to my eyes.

So we can join forces on that one!

However - and that is where the real significance lies - the torso murders go well beyond the limits of practicality! Things were done to the bodies that have nothing to do with concealing either murder or identity.

To begin with, Elizabeth Jackson, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly all had their abdominal walls removed, creating something that looks very much like what we have in the anatomical Venuses.

Have another look here:

http://morbidanatomy.blogspot.se/2013/01/ode-to-anatomical-venus-womens-studies.html

Look at the second picture from the top. Does it remind you of something you have seen before, Gareth? The pose, the entrails on the bed at the womans feet, the light cloth she lies on...?

You see, THIS is where the discussion should be centered, and not around how there may be elements of concealment in dismemberment murders. We all knew that before, but most of us will not have been aware about these figures that were common in wax cabinets in London up until the year of 1873, when they were banned. And 1873 was the exact year of the first torso killing!

There are - as I showed you - wax figures where the face has been removed from the skull - just like in the Battersea torso case. The anatomical Venuses were figures where you could take out the innards and place them around the figures of the women lying on their backs with their abdominal walls taken away. And sometimes with the breasts taken away too, as per Kelly, leaving the ribcages uncovered.

The abdominal walls of Jackson, Chapman and Kelly were removed in large flaps. Look at the top picture of this site:

http://morbidanatomy.blogspot.se/2015/10/house-of-wax-opening-death-cafe-erotic.html

Or on this one, second pic from the top:

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/6533

Any thoughts, likenesses?

It is all very easy to say "There must not be a connection". That is very true. But the thing is that there sure seems to be a connection. A connection between the Ripper and the Torso man, a connection between the murders and the anatomical Venuses and a connection between how the Venuses disappeared largely in 1873 and how the torso murders began the same year.

How about discussing that?

[Abby Normal]

First off
Hats off to mike! Awesome find and I like the connection being made.

As one of the few posters who has always considered the strong possibility that the ripper and the torso man were the same I really appreciate this post.

Of course one of the final straws For me was the research done by debra arif that showed not only that the 1880s torso victims all had abdominal mutilations but the uncanny similarity in which the flaps of skin were removed on Kelly and Jackson, and apparently chapman.

I now lean slightly better than 50/50 that at least the 1880s torso victims were done by the same hand as the ripper victims.


Now this and we have another uncanny similarity and connection with the anatomical display of1873 and the first torso victims.

However, I don't know much about the 1870 torsos.
Maybe someone can help me out.

How many we're there?
What years?
Was the their clear signs of abdominal mutilations as in the 1880s torso victims.
What else ties the 1870s ones to the 1880s ones and
What's the time gap between them?


And Fish
As you know ive been critical, sympathetic and even encouraging of lechmere as a suspect, but this I say really does help your cause because not only age wise for the 1870s torsos but also that it shows how a non medical person, such as lechmere may have learned the anatomical know how. And of coirse it could have fueled a young mans serial killing fantasies.and tie in his probable experience in the cats meat busines(knife and butchering skills) and This bodes very well for lech IMHO.

[Sam Flynn]

You spoke of concealing murders - as opposed to concealing the identities of the victims, Gareth.

I've explained myself quite clearly, Fish - and expanded upon my earlier point with a fuller explanation, for extra clarity. Nothing wrong with that. I can assure you that I'd defer to your better knowledge if I'd misunderstood something written in the Swedish idiom.

Anyhow, lexical ping-pong will get us nowhere, and would detract from the point I was actually making - namely, that dismemberment is, and has long been, a tactic used by a number of killers for a number of reasons. "Torso murders" and, by extension, "torso murderers", are just not particularly rare.

[Fisherman]

First off
Hats off to mike! Awesome find and I like the connection being made.

As one of the few posters who has always considered the strong possibility that the ripper and the torso man were the same I really appreciate this post.

Of course one of the final straws For me was the research done by debra arif that showed not only that the 1880s torso victims all had abdominal mutilations but the uncanny similarity in which the flaps of skin were removed on Kelly and Jackson, and apparently chapman.

I now lean slightly better than 50/50 that at least the 1880s torso victims were done by the same hand as the ripper victims.


Now this and we have another uncanny similarity and connection with the anatomical display of1873 and the first torso victims.

However, I don't know much about the 1870 torsos.
Maybe someone can help me out.

How many we're there?
What years?
Was the their clear signs of abdominal mutilations as in the 1880s torso victims.
What else ties the 1870s ones to the 1880s ones and
What's the time gap between them?


And Fish
As you know ive been critical, sympathetic and even encouraging of lechmere as a suspect, but this I say really does help your cause because not only age wise for the 1870s torsos but also that it shows how a non medical person, such as lechmere may have learned the anatomical know how. And of coirse it could have fueled a young mans serial killing fantasies.and tie in his probable experience in the cats meat busines(knife and butchering skills) and This bodes very well for lech IMHO.

Hi Abby!

Let´s begin by putting things into perspective! I have been talking to Debra Arif - who probably knows more about the Torso murders than any other living person - and she has pointed out that the anatomical Venuses have been brought up before, by for example A P Wolf, Magpie and Pilgrim. Two of these posters do not post anymore, only Magpie remains (in sparse amounts). So credit is due there too!

I think Mike originally presented the wax figures on account of a possible connection to Pranzini - I don´t think that Tumblety can be placed in London in 1873-74 and in 1889, so Mike is not looking into that particular matter as far as I know. But much credit is due to him for bringing the material to our attention!

The Torso murders began (or it is believed they began) in 1873, with the Battersea torso. Then we have the Putney torso in 1874, the Tottenham torso in 1884 and then we move into the torsos that overlap the Ripper deeds: the Rainham torso in 1887, the Whitehall torso in 1888, Elizabeth Jackson in the summer of 1889 and finally the Pinchin Street torso in September of 1889.

You may have notioced that i mentioned earlier that the 1873 torso had her face cut away from the skull, and that there are examples of anatomical Venuses that fit that pattern perfectly, like for example this:

https://twitter.com/obsessedwskulls/status/472527935224557568

It is certainly food for thought, albeit we should keep in mind that we don´t know which wax representations were exhibited in London.

I don´t know to what extent there were mutilations in the 1873 and 1874 victims - there is very little written about the latter one, but we do know that the former had the face cut away. I believe the 1873 victim had her uterus intact in the body - but if we are looking at murders that were goverened by the anatomical figures, then we should perhaps not expect the killer to have targetted any specific organ. It would explain why he took a kidney from Eddowes, and it would explain why he took out all of Kellys innards, more or less - only to leave them behind as he left; his interest would arguably NOT have been what we have always thought it was, to procure innards. Instead, he was replicating what he had seen in the wax cabinets. The fact that he took away Chapmans uterus and Eddowes uterus and kidney would have been connected with the fact that you could do that with a wax effigy. You could take them out and bring them with you, and you could take them out and leave them with the figure. They were just parts of the human puzzle.

I am still reeling with shock at this, so you must excuse me if I get carried away...!

I agree that the possible connections we are looking at here does nothing at all to diminish the interest in Charles Lechmere.

[Fisherman]

I've explained myself quite clearly, Fish - and expanded upon my earlier point with a fuller explanation, for extra clarity. Nothing wrong with that. I can assure you that I'd defer to your better knowledge if I'd misunderstood something written in the Swedish idiom.

Anyhow, lexical ping-pong will get us nowhere, and would detract from the point I was actually making - namely, that dismemberment is, and has long been, a tactic used by a number of killers for a number of reasons. "Torso murders" and, by extension, "torso murderers", are just not particularly rare.

I accepted your explanation, Gareth. I did that in my former post. Plus I encouraged a discussion of other matters.

Did you miss both points?

[David Orsam]

I don´t think that Tumblety can be placed in London in 1873-74

As it happens, Tumblety was in London in September 1873.

But then again, so were many other people.

[Fisherman]

As it happens, Tumblety was in London in September 1873.

But then again, so were many other people.

Aha. How about 1874 - and, not least, 1889? Surely he was not in England that year, given his earlier exploits?

[Sam Flynn]

I accepted your explanation, Gareth. I did that in my former post.

OK, Fish, but I glazed over after your opening sentence! As to your other points - yes, I also see similarities between the "Venuses" and the Chapman and Kelly murders in particular. (Not so convinced about Jackson.)

They are reminiscent of the Kelly murder especially, although I would note that there are only so many ways one can pose a 5ft woman on a 5ft bed! I'm sure that's not the original bed, by the way, and not sure it was the original pose. In addition, we can't be sure that the placement of the organs by the waxwork's feet is authentic or not. I was going to point out that the waxwork's legs aren't spread apart, but presumably that was for the sake of modesty.

It's quite possible that the Ripper gained his famed "anatomical knowledge" from waxworks such as these, indeed I made a similar point on a recent Rippercast. I wasn't suggesting that the Ripper was exposed to these dummies in particular, as I'm sure there would have been other popular examples around. That said, I'm open to the idea that these very waxworks could have been a source of inspiration for him.

[David Orsam]

Aha. How about 1874 - and, not least, 1889? Surely he was not in England that year, given his earlier exploits?

He was in England in 1874.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: OK, Fish, but I glazed over after your opening sentence!

That´s fine. You run the risk that I sometimes have something important to say, but that´s your choice.

As to your other points - yes, I also see similarities between the "Venuses" and the Chapman and Kelly murders in particular. (Not so convinced about Jackson.)

Let´s face it - it takes blindness not to...! But I´m glad to hear that.

They are reminiscent of the Kelly murder especially, although I would note that there are only so many ways one can pose a 5ft woman on a 5ft bed!

True. But you CAN avoid garnishing her with her own innards!

I'm sure that's not the original bed, by the way, and not sure it was the original pose. In addition, the placement of the organs by the waxwork's feet is authentic or not. I was going to point out that the waxwork's legs aren't spread apart, but presumably that was for the sake of modesty.

I think it matters little where the innards were placed - the more important matter is that we know that the innards could be taken out, meaning that they would normally be placed on the bed with the figure - or on whatever surface she originally lay on. It makes for a perfect parallel with the Kelly murder, where we have all been wondering (I know I have, at least) why a killer we have always believed was intent on procuring inner organs, would actually leave them behind when he had a chance to take them all with himself. The anatomical Venus offers the best explanation to that by a country mile, if you ask me!

It's quite possible that the Ripper gained his famed "anatomical knowledge" from waxworks such as these, indeed I made a similar point on a recent Rippercast. I wasn't suggesting that the Ripper was exposed to these dummies in particular, as I'm sure there would have been other popular examples around. That said, I'm open to the idea that these very waxworks could have been a source of inspiration for him.

I think there can be little doubt. Then again, I am the more rash one of us. However, there is too much in it for it not to be the by far most credible scenario: The creation of a window made by removing the abdominal wall in flaps, the removing of the breasts in the Kelly case, offering a clear view into the thorax, the fact that the killer left the innards laying on the bed all around Kelly, exactly the way the anatomical Venus was normally used, the fact that there were anaqtomical Venuses with their faces cut away from the skull just like in the 1873 torso case, the correlation between the closure of the anatomical waxworks exhibitions, the fact that the killer obviously did not target sexual organs only, the possibility that he was trying to cut away the abdominal walls of Nichols and Eddowes...


So, it all fits together this way; the normal visitor to the waxworks museum on Thomas Street, very close to Lechmere´s grounds, was from the working class. That visitor was given a comprehensive lesson about where to find the different organs of the body. The likeness between the Jackson case as relating to the Kelly and Chapman cases speaks very clearly about the same perpetrator in all three cases, the 1873 torso having the face cut away from the skull as per the anatomical wax figures - all of these matters point to a killer who was mature enough to have started out in 1873 and who was active up until 1889 (at least) and who could well have developed an immense sense of invincibility and confidence along the way, arriving at a stage where he started to claim victims out in the open street even, late in his carreer.


It all fits William Gu... sorry, Charles Lechmere, all the way. I know it will annoy the hell out of a good many people, but here goes:

It is all coming together now. We have never been closer to solving the Ripper murders.

[Fisherman]

He was in England in 1874.

But not in 1889, right? After returning to the US in 1888, he would not have visited England again.