Working position of the killer

[Shaggyrand]

The whole body was full of wounds. It is impossible to know anything about defence.

Regards Pierre

Actually, in this case, that's not true. Any wound that showed evidence of bleeding would be a possible defensive wound. Kelly was exsanguinated before the mutilations began. There wasn't enough blood left in the extremities to dribble out after that.

[Pierre]

Actually, in this case, that's not true. Any wound that showed evidence of bleeding would be a possible defensive wound. Kelly was exsanguinated before the mutilations began. There wasn't enough blood left in the extremities to dribble out after that.

Hi.

You have got to be joking. "Any wound that showed evidence of bleeding would be a possible defensive wound."

The room was full of blood, as was the dead body. Did she defend herself using the legs too? They were full of cuts.

Does the post mortem examinations say anything about defensive wounds?

Regards Pierre

[Wickerman]

What Shaggyrand was alluding to, I think, is, that wounds which bleed were received before death.
Obviously a stab in the ribs is not a defensive wound, but any slices to the hands & arms, which show indications of bleeding were received before death. Those wounds would be consistent with defensive wounds.
Kelly did have such wounds.

[Rosella]

It's awful to consider that Mary knew what was happening to her in her last few seconds of life. None of the other C-5 had such possible defensive wounds. Did where she was lying on the bed in relation to him preclude Jack trying to strangle her, I wonder, or was he just so impatient to get to the fun part, the mutilations, that he just couldn't be bothered?

[Shaggyrand]

What Shaggyrand was alluding to, I think, is, that wounds which bleed were received before death.
Obviously a stab in the ribs is not a defensive wound, but any slices to the hands & arms, which show indications of bleeding were received before death. Those wounds would be consistent with defensive wounds.
Kelly did have such wounds.

Right, thanks Wicker. I'm sorry I wasn't clear but not if I was willfully misunderstood- that's on others. Kelly didn't have many possible defensive wounds and some of the bruising patterns on the hands were unusual, as I recall, but I don't remember what was unusual about them off hand.

[Pierre]

What Shaggyrand was alluding to, I think, is, that wounds which bleed were received before death.
Obviously a stab in the ribs is not a defensive wound, but any slices to the hands & arms, which show indications of bleeding were received before death. Those wounds would be consistent with defensive wounds.
Kelly did have such wounds.

Hi,

I am always interested in what you are writing in this forum.

Perhaps you could tell me if bleeding stops in the second of death or some seconds after death.

I would also very much appreciate a source for the statement that Kelly had defensive wounds.

Do you happen to have such a source?

Regards Pierre

[FrankO]

I would also very much appreciate a source for the statement that Kelly had defensive wounds.

The key is in Dr. Bond's post-mortem report.

[Pierre]

The key is in Dr. Bond's post-mortem report.

Well, thank you but I am not looking for keys but for an exact reference. My research field is not medicine so this is not obvious to me.

Regards Pierre

[FrankO]

It wasn't obvious to me, Pierre, because 'm no medical expert either. But putting in a bit of effort will get you there, or further at least. You may want to look for "extravasation of blood into the skin".

[Wickerman]

Hi,

I am always interested in what you are writing in this forum.

Perhaps you could tell me if bleeding stops in the second of death or some seconds after death.

Hi, bleeding does not stop at the 'second' of death, in part because death takes longer than a 'second' to take place.

When reading through the various medical opinions on these cases you have likely come across the term 'syncope'.
This is the heart failing to continue beating due to the lack of sufficient blood in the circulatory system. As blood oozes out of a critical wound (ie; severing of the carotid artery, by example) the heartbeat will slow down and eventually cease. There is no sudden stop.

Any wounds applied immediately following the cut to the throat may bleed temporarily, but will slow to a stop. However, gravity also plays a roll in bleeding.

I'm sure you have come across the term Lividity?, this is where blood in the torso, or in the uppermost regions of the body will settle to the lower regions typically those limbs/regions nearest to the ground.
So, if there are wounds in those lower regions then they will also bleed for a time after the heart has ceased to beat, purely due to gravity.

There is also a difference between flesh wounds, those that are superficial and only inches deep, and severe wounds which sever veins & arteries.
There is no pressure behind the blood in the skin (flesh wounds), but there is pressure in wounds that sever arteries (while the heart is beating).

All that said, Dr. Bond wrote:
" Both arms & forearms had extensive & jagged wounds.

The right thumb showed a small superficial incision about 1 in long, with extravasation of blood in the skin & there were several abrasions on the back of the hand moreover showing the same condition."

Those words are not proof that she defended herself, but any doctor or policeman will recognise these are exactly the type of wounds that do occur when someone attempts to defend themselves.
They are indications, not proof.

'Extravasation' around a wound suggests blood was flowing at the time the wound was made. However, the effect of gravity must also be taken into account.

And briefly a last point, for a doctor to say that syncope was the cause of death, it often goes unnoticed by the reader that this also means, the victim was alive when her throat was cut.
Possibly unconscious (we might hope), but still alive.

[Pierre]

Hi, bleeding does not stop at the 'second' of death, in part because death takes longer than a 'second' to take place.

When reading through the various medical opinions on these cases you have likely come across the term 'syncope'.
This is the heart failing to continue beating due to the lack of sufficient blood in the circulatory system. As blood oozes out of a critical wound (ie; severing of the carotid artery, by example) the heartbeat will slow down and eventually cease. There is no sudden stop.

Any wounds applied immediately following the cut to the throat may bleed temporarily, but will slow to a stop. However, gravity also plays a roll in bleeding.

I'm sure you have come across the term Lividity?, this is where blood in the torso, or in the uppermost regions of the body will settle to the lower regions typically those limbs/regions nearest to the ground.
So, if there are wounds in those lower regions then they will also bleed for a time after the heart has ceased to beat, purely due to gravity.

There is also a difference between flesh wounds, those that are superficial and only inches deep, and severe wounds which sever veins & arteries.
There is no pressure behind the blood in the skin (flesh wounds), but there is pressure in wounds that sever arteries (while the heart is beating).

All that said, Dr. Bond wrote:
" Both arms & forearms had extensive & jagged wounds.

The right thumb showed a small superficial incision about 1 in long, with extravasation of blood in the skin & there were several abrasions on the back of the hand moreover showing the same condition."

Those words are not proof that she defended herself, but any doctor or policeman will recognise these are exactly the type of wounds that do occur when someone attempts to defend themselves.
They are indications, not proof.

'Extravasation' around a wound suggests blood was flowing at the time the wound was made. However, the effect of gravity must also be taken into account.

And briefly a last point, for a doctor to say that syncope was the cause of death, it often goes unnoticed by the reader that this also means, the victim was alive when her throat was cut.
Possibly unconscious (we might hope), but still alive.

Thanks Wickerman.

Regards Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

Back on the thread premise for a second, the working position of the killer was a factor of 2 things,....his preference for hand usage...(since only about 1% of any given population is technically ambidextrous), and environmental obstacles.

It would seem based on that criteria that there was only 1 place for the killer to have worked from, and that was Marys left side. Since that is the only logical position for a working location, the left side of the bed, then left hand preference makes the most sense.

Picture the killer with his back to the windows, is it feasible that he could use his right hand for all the cutting work...considering that the biological materials on the nighttable were likely placed there once excised.

Does he cut with his left hand then pivot with materials in his right hand to place almost behind him, or does he cut with his righthand, leaving his to use his left hand across the body while in a twisted position to place the items on the table?

I know what makes sense to me anyway....and this murder therefore becomes the ONLY Canonical murder where the assumed predominant hand of the killer was likely his left hand. Another codicil before grouping Mary with prior victims....along with the murder location-indoors, means of accessing the victim-accessing her own room the victims age-half that of other Canonicals, the victims activities at the time she met her killer-not actively soliciting, and the activities performed upon the victim-the only organ taken twice up until this point was a uterus, this killer left that under her head....etc.