Working position of the killer

[Pierre]

Elamarna wrote to me concearning the murder on Mary Jane Kelly, since I hypothesized the MJK3 photograph is showing the real working position of the killer while MJK1 is showing the position of the bed and victim after beeing moved by the police:

"You have not proved that MJK1 was taken after the bed was moved back. You are not the first to suggest this, but no proof has ever been produced."

So now I would suggest some evidence for this. Look at the photographs:

Regards Pierre

[Elamarna]

Fame at last.

Now we are on something i do understand , .. Photography,

First from MJK1 it is clear the table is up to the bed, it could get no closer, the tissue on the table appears to be in the same position on the Table as in MJK3. given that most of MJK3 appears to be focus in this picture we can assume a small apperture was used, this would lead to a fore shortening effect on move distant items, that is why the tissue APPEARS closer in MJK3, not because it has been moved.
The two photos were taken from very different angles, MJK1 is taken looking down at a moderately steep angle.
MJK3 is taken almost on the level, this difference will of course lead to different perspectives in the pictures.

indeed taking perspective into account the corner of the table would appear to line up around the waist in both photos


A fair amount of work has been done on these photos in the past, by several persons.

The possibility of fraud has been looked at, and a case has been made that the hand is in relatively the same position in both photos; this would seem to discount fraud and the bed being moved.

[Elamarna]

Pierre,
I would further suggest that as we know the body was moved after the throat was cut, something i hope we can agree on, that the killer did not work near to the table but would have moved around and probably spent some time on the bed itself, and possibly on the far side if there was a small gap between the bed and partition wall, which is indeed possible, I think we all agree on that.

Given that the whole body was mutilated i think it would be extremely difficult to do this from a single position

regards

[MysterySinger]

I believe there was a gap on the side of the bed nearest the partition wall, that JTR did some of his work from there, and that this is evident in the photo JTR1 (because of the angles I see) and also in JTR3. I think JTR1 could have been taken with the bed in that position.

However, JTR3 also looks like a fraud because of the position of the thumb on MJKs left hand - there is a thumb where her little finger should be I think. I'm not sure that the Police moved the bed, but JTR probably moved the body from one side of the bed to the other and also moved the foot of the bed away from the wall. Clearly there would have been a risk in doing that. Could the bed even have been on castors?

[Elamarna]

Mystery singer
Whilst I still do not see the angle you see in MJK1. I agree with the rest you say.
There has been much speculation that MJK3 is faked. I am open on this. There is certainly a lack of provenance in relation to it.
I think it is safe to say the killer cuts were committed with the body on the far left side of the bed and the body moved to the centre and right of the bed..
It is possible that the bed and table were moved small amounts by the killer.
It would be unlikely that he did not have to move things by the odd inch or two.

[MysterySinger]

I've put a mock up on another post that might show it better.

[Rosella]

I can't see McCarthy providing castors to his ancient beds just for the convenience of his tenants! Heaven forbid!

I am interested as to where Jack was when the initial blow was struck.

If Mary was sleeping/snoozing right next to the partition with perhaps a sheet over the lower part of her face, (or was she ambushed by his quickly throwing that sheet over,) Jack would have had to be kneeling on the bed for that initial grab and throttle wouldn't he? Standing on the other side of the bed and then leaning over the width of the bed would have been very awkward.

[Robert St Devil]

Mystery singer
Whilst I still do not see the angle you see in MJK1. I agree with the rest you say.
There has been much speculation that MJK3 is faked. I am open on this. There is certainly a lack of provenance in relation to it.
I think it is safe to say the killer cuts were committed with the body on the far left side of the bed and the body moved to the centre and right of the bed..
It is possible that the bed and table were moved small amounts by the killer.
It would be unlikely that he did not have to move things by the odd inch or two.

Id like to know what you think...

In MJK1, there is a bundle of covers by her right leg.
... I see MJK3 being taken directly behind that bundle. At the bottom of the photo, you see the upper part of the bundle directly underneath her leg bone.

In MJK1, her upper right calf has a black band around it.
...In MJK3, the leg bone has a deep cut (black band).

I think the outside wrist bone (the ball) matches up.
I think that MJK3 suggests that her hand is sitting deeper in her abdominal cavity (under her ribs, practically on her spine).
If her neck is sliced-thru, her head can turn obliquely(?) from her upper body.

In MJK3, The reflection of light on the organs may be coming fromthe second window.
Somewhere between that "knob" and the window is the corner of the wall.

[Purkis]

Pierre, regarding MJK3, I don't think Mary's leg is visible, I believe that what you have circled is her hip bone, largely stripped of flesh.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Pierre.

In MJK1, i believe you have circled her butt. If you follow the white arc upwards from the point you circled, you will notice how the arc crests. That crest is the top point of her left hip bone.

[Pierre]

Hi Elamarna,

So you understand photography. Thatīs great!

Then you are able to answer the following questions:

Fame at last.
Now we are on something i do understand , .. Photography,

indeed taking perspective into account the corner of the table would appear to line up around the waist in both photos

1. Taking perspective into account: With what method exactly (so we can use this method too)?

A fair amount of work has been done on these photos in the past, by several persons.

2. These several persons - what are the sources you use for this statement?

The possibility of fraud has been looked at, and a case has been made that the hand is in relatively the same position in both photos; this would seem to discount fraud and the bed being moved.

3. This possibility "looked at" - what is the source?

4. What do you mean by "this would seem to discount fraud and the bed being moved."?

Regards Pierre

[Elamarna]

Pierre

item 1, you are looking in MJK3 at an angle over the lower body towards the table., From this position the corner of the table is directly behind the area you circle. Therefore if looking overhead straight down onto the body, the table corner is roughly in line with waist area, that is just basic physics. With regards to MJK1 this is a fairly wide angle shot compared to MJK3, it is very clear where the corner edge lines up. That is my opinion having spent a fair amount of years having photography as a hobby.

With regards to points two and three you are already aware of the answers to these, we have discussed them on another thread, just to remind you: Simon Woods dissertation and several threads by SGH and others.
There is no firm agreement by any of the posters on if the bed as been moved or the photo is a fake. much would depend on the type of plate and lens used. although we could guess the answers to these questions the truth is we do not know.
On threads on MJK3 it has been suggested that the left hand and right leg areas have been photographically manipulated, this would imply a fake and therefore no more need be said

Final point, if the photos line up, and the hand position is the same it suggests, no more than that, any movement to the bed was minimal and does not back that MJK3 is a fake. however, this is a very big if, it is still open to interpretation.
I am honest enough to say i do not know 100% if the bed was moved, but my view is that if it was it was not moved by more than a few inches, not half way across the room

Please note when asked for sources of info some of us respond unlike someone.
I have decided not to reply to any more posts by you, it is a waste of time.
people are being turned off of this site, you claim you are here to unburden yourself. if that is true why do you post so many threads?

i suggest we all ignore you.

[Elamarna]

Mystery Singer,

thank you for the image on the other thread, i see what you mean however i am not convinced, but it is possible. My reservations are due to the fact that the area is very unclear and it is known that the eye can see stuff which actually isn't there.
it is an interesting idea you put forward and i will spend some time
reconsidering it.

The real problem with both the pictures is not having a full view of the room, not knowing the plate size or lens used.

regards

steve

[curious4]

Pierre

item 1, you are looking in MJK3 at an angle over the lower body towards the table., From this position the corner of the table is directly behind the area you circle. Therefore if looking overhead straight down onto the body, the table corner is roughly in line with waist area, that is just basic physics. With regards to MJK1 this is a fairly wide angle shot compared to MJK3, it is very clear where the corner edge lines up. That is my opinion having spent a fair amount of years having photography as a hobby.

With regards to points two and three you are already aware of the answers to these, we have discussed them on another thread, just to remind you: Simon Woods dissertation and several threads by SGH and others.
There is no firm agreement by any of the posters on if the bed as been moved or the photo is a fake. much would depend on the type of plate and lens used. although we could guess the answers to these questions the truth is we do not know.
On threads on MJK3 it has been suggested that the left hand and right leg areas have been photographically manipulated, this would imply a fake and therefore no more need be said

Final point, if the photos line up, and the hand position is the same it suggests, no more than that, any movement to the bed was minimal and does not back that MJK3 is a fake. however, this is a very big if, it is still open to interpretation.
I am honest enough to say i do not know 100% if the bed was moved, but my view is that if it was it was not moved by more than a few inches, not half way across the room

Please note when asked for sources of info some of us respond unlike someone.
I have decided not to reply to any more posts by you, it is a waste of time.
people are being turned off of this site, you claim you are here to unburden yourself. if that is true why do you post so many threads?

i suggest we all ignore you.

I second that. Please stop feeding the troll!

C4

[DJA]

You just did....again!

Edit. D'oh!