Ligature Signature, or How did Jack the Ripper get his ligature knowledge?

[The Good Michael]

I think anyone who wanted to strangle a woman wouldn't have to learn a great deal and could probably just envision it and do it and especially with women in a vulnerable condistion or position. I don't feel there's anything here at all.

Mike

[Robert St Devil]

There are still isolated cases of garrotting being reported in the press for 1888, every month throughout the year. The method is still being used.

Hello Wickerman.
Were the reports in 1888 gang or individual related?

[Robert St Devil]

I think anyone who wanted to strangle a woman wouldn't have to learn a great deal and could probably just envision it and do it and especially with women in a vulnerable condistion or position. I don't feel there's anything here at all.

Mike

Hello Good Michael.
How would You envision strangling a woman in public?

[Robert St Devil]

The lAst source that i used was Guy's Hospital Reports Vol. 49, p.108. It is the doctor's report of the homicidal strangulation of Mr. Kerwain in 1892. Mr Kerwain was the victim of a confidence scam performed by a prostitue and 3 men at a pub. In the post mortem, it describes the same condition of the heart's ventricles as Elizabeth Stride's heart. Mr Kerwain appeared to be strangled with a hand and his own tie, which reminded me of the silk neckerchief.

Notes of interest:
It also talks of the hands being semi-clenched.
The tongue was pressed against the teeth.
It took the men less than 5 minutes to garrot and rob the man in a dark alley.
His stomach contained 6.5 percent/vol. alcohol; public house beer was 5.5.
Mr Kerwain is reported to have somewhat hyperemic kidney (possibly congested?).
He is reported to have ecchymosis spots on his forehead. To speculate, these weren't conditions of bruising but purpura spots brought on by his renal condition. It brings to mind blotchy skin.

[The Good Michael]

Hello Good Michael.
How would You envision strangling a woman in public?

Why would I do that?

Mike

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman.
Were the reports in 1888 gang or individual related?

Hello Robert.
From Aug - Nov, 1888 five cases of gangs garrotting a victim, one case of a single garrotter.
Odd that these press accounts don't actually mention the use of a cord.

[Karl]

The ecchymosis on Mary Jane Kellys neck suggest strangulation. The blood clots in Elizabeth Stride's left ventricle suggest strangulation. Garroting a victim properly was a professional operation.

How did Jack the Ripper get his ligature knowledge?

.

Jumping to conclusions. Strangulation does not automatically imply ligature strangulation. Ligature strangulation leaves tell tale marks, which manual strangulation doesn't always do.

Could the Ripper have been a former soldier, and have been trained in hand-to-hand combat?

This does not necessitate a military background. Martial arts were practiced back then as well. Several types of wrestling and boxing flourished in the 19th century, even though it's not what most people associate with the Victorian era.

I believe garrotting lends credibility to Schwartz' testimony. He attests to seeing a woman being attacked on Berner St. She cries for help but not loudly BECAUSE she has a ligature (silk handkerchief; could she afford silk?) cinched around her neck and she is losing conciousness.

If she was being strangled, whether by garotte or throttling, she would not be able to scream at all. Strangling not only prevents inhalation, it also prevents exhalation to the same extent.

Maybe her height made her a difficult victim but that obstacle is not relevant since Jack the Ripper is situationally adaptable.

The only reference we have for Elizabeth Stride's height - at least as far as I'm aware - is her inquest, in which her height is given as 5'2. Also, we do not know to what degree Jack the Ripper was situationally adaptable. That's just a place-holder explanation to allow oneself to ignore the inconsistencies between the various murders. Personally, I am not convinced one way or the other that Elizabeth Stride or Mary Jean Kelly were victims of JtR, and I am not going to assume situational adaptability simply out of convenience.

We know she was strangulated by the condition of her heart in the post mortem.

The heart alone cannot tell us this. Cardiac dilation is one of the aspects associated with asphyxiation, but it is also a common post mortem find besides. It must be viewed in context with the rest of the post mortem.

[curious4]

Jumping to conclusions. Strangulation does not automatically imply ligature strangulation. Ligature strangulation leaves tell tale marks, which manual strangulation doesn't always do.



This does not necessitate a military background. Martial arts were practiced back then as well. Several types of wrestling and boxing flourished in the 19th century, even though it's not what most people associate with the Victorian era.



If she was being strangled, whether by garotte or throttling, she would not be able to scream at all. Strangling not only prevents inhalation, it also prevents exhalation to the same extent.



The only reference we have for Elizabeth Stride's height - at least as far as I'm aware - is her inquest, in which her height is given as 5'2. Also, we do not know to what degree Jack the Ripper was situationally adaptable. That's just a place-holder explanation to allow oneself to ignore the inconsistencies between the various murders. Personally, I am not convinced one way or the other that Elizabeth Stride or Mary Jean Kelly were victims of JtR, and I am not going to assume situational adaptability simply out of convenience.



The heart alone cannot tell us this. Cardiac dilation is one of the aspects associated with asphyxiation, but it is also a common post mortem find besides. It must be viewed in context with the rest of the post mortem.

Hello Karl

A ligature strangulation does not always leave a mark, especially if a soft ligature is used.

Liz cried out when being thrown/forced to the ground.

The idea of garrotting could have been discussed in a barrack room/mess, doesn't need to have been taught.

Best wishes
C4

[Robert St Devil]

Hello C4.
I was deployed in 007. I served alongside the Aussies at Camp Adder; good people. During our pre-deployment, we were trained on some mixed martial arts, and administering a chokehold to render someone unconscious was something we learned. During WWII, my grandfather was trained how to garrot someone using a weapon that looked like piano wire with knobs on the end. They used to make him practice on pineapples; he was in The Pacific. So yes, i could see it being a military-earned skill.

[Karl]

[QUOTE=curious4;360817]Hello Karl

A ligature strangulation does not always leave a mark, especially if a soft ligature is used.
[quote]
True, there is certainly a difference according to the implement used. A soft ligature would nevertheless have to be applied with a great deal of pressure, which would make it taut and would almost certainly leave a mark - whereas throttling can be achieved with local pressure directly to the wind-pipe, and depending on technique might not leave a mark. With a thumb, you do not even need to press particularly hard either above or below the larynx (especially below - the soft spot immediately above the sternum), but of course the victim's struggle would usually compel you to apply force.

Liz cried out when being thrown/forced to the ground.

That is my opinion as well. I was replying, before, to Robert's suggestion that the cry was not loud because she was losing consciousness, ie. she was being strangled at the time. And this I do not believe. I believe she cried first, as she was being forced to the ground, and then was strangled.

The idea of garrotting could have been discussed in a barrack room/mess, doesn't need to have been taught.

Indeed not. Doesn't even need to have been discussed in order to be understood. It is rather intuitive, I'd say. And it certainly is not sufficient to suggest a military background.

[Wickerman]

The heart alone cannot tell us this. Cardiac dilation is one of the aspects associated with asphyxiation, but it is also a common post mortem find besides. It must be viewed in context with the rest of the post mortem.

Dr Phillips commented that Annie Chapman had a considerable amount of black blood in her system, which indicated to him that she had been strangled, (that the heart had continued to beat for a short time, while oxygen was not taken in to her system).

As for the mark left by the use of a ligature (Garotte), Dr Brownfield remarked that the second cut around the throat of those victims may have been applied to obliterate the mark of the ligature.

[Rosella]

^ Schwartz said in his statement that he saw a man (BS man) stop and speak to a woman who was standing in the gateway. She (presumably Liz, though we don't know for sure) was standing in the gateway, not in the passageway or Yard but where she could be seen by passerby like Schwartz.

Schwartz then stated that the man tried to pull the woman into the street but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and 'the woman screamed three times but not very loudly'.

So, if BS man was Jack he (a) tried to pull her into the street and (b) attempted presumably to throttle her there on the footway in front of others (not in the yard, not in the dark passageway.)

Not very Ripper-like behaviour to say the least, and in fact Schwartz, if we are to believe his statement, never mentioned that BS man's hands were anywhere near her throat at any time, even when she was calling out. Therefore, she could hardly have been 'losing consciousness at the time' she was (according to Schwartz) quietly screaming.

[Boggles]

and in fact Schwartz, if we are to believe his statement, never mentioned that BS man's hands were anywhere near her throat at any time

He was in a hurry and it was dark. Should we draw too many conclusions from the limited information we have?
All we know was that he saw violence being done to a woman who was found dead shortly afterwards. And we have a vague description of the attacker, but thats all we have?

[Robert St Devil]

'ello Ros
I believe he had the neckerchief cinched round her neck by that point. Only becase i need a rational answer for the oxymoron of "silent screaming". (The ghost of that thought found in my beliefs on all those silent "murder" screams littered through out the case.). The doctor claims she may have been pulled by it, and throttled on the ground. I believe it was up against the wall (for now).

This is all based on Schwartz' testimony (of course).

Here's my thought: what if Schwartz is telling the truth. Now Jack the Ripper has a witness on the loose, who may be alerting the nearest constable because i had to ask myself: how would Jack the Ripper know that Schwartz was a chicken sh-t? He wouldn't. He cant afford Elizabeth Stride to regain conciousness (if she has any life after the strangulation), so he cuts her throat, slices her, and exits.

[Robert St Devil]

The heart alone cannot tell us this. Cardiac dilation is one of the aspects associated with asphyxiation, but it is also a common post mortem find besides. It must be viewed in context with the rest of the post mortem.

Hello Karl.
i am taking into account the heart, the neckerchief, and the bruising about her collar. Without the aspect of the heart, the post mortem is sh--.

I based this thread off Abby Normals Anatomy Knowledge thread. Like you, I dcided to abandon the notion of a canonical five since ive often overheard members make claim like yours. I chise a separate approach and wondered if the murders be connected by viewing him as Jack the Strangler. However it became apparent that Jack the Garotter was more appropriate. Not merely because he used a ligature. Garotting in 1888 seemed like an operation/method that coincides with his MO - with elements of taken confidence, strangulation in public, ligatures, accomplices?, petty theft.

I agree that strangulation can be envisioned. We see it in crimes of passion. However that type of strangulation is a mad, panicked act. More in line with squeezing someone to death. In the case of Elizabeth Stride, he is able to cinch the neckerchief around her neck, and tie a knot. i have to work out the kinks in this claim, but i imagine that he is deliberately aiming to crush these women's larynx. In the cases of the women with a dine sized bruise between her thumb and fore finger, i am debating whether he used the method that I posted above - with the "nasty man", where he lifts and strangles with his wrist bone while holding her hand with his free hand. The knowledge is obtainable, but that doesn't automatically make you good at it. I believe you would need to know what you are doing, and have done it.

As for situational awareness/adaptability, i only meant to infer that he did not panic when Schwartz walked up on him. He maintained his composure while in the act of the crime. He responded professionally, knowing the resolution unhesitatingly. That takes some nerve!