Did JtR murder on his days off work?

[Batman]

The question is really asking did JtR hold down a 5 day week 9-5 job or similar when looking back at 1888 and the type of work among the different classes in London.

I think it is safe to say that work for the impoverished meant 7 days a week with the Sabbath kept for Jews and Christians. I wonder how those days split out between them?

I find it hard to believe that JtR didn't hold a regular job and didn't kill on his days off or holidays or close to both. This is because journalists at the time seemed to propose he killed on his days off.

http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../dt881110.html

The Daily Telegraph
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 1888

From the sketch map of the locality given it will be seen that the sites of all the seven murders, five of which are, without any hesitation or doubt, ascribed by the police to one man, are contained within a limited area. A comparison of the dates reveals remarkable coincidences.

The murderer has invariably chosen the latter part of the week, and when the deed has not been committed on the last day of the month it has taken place as near the 7th or 8th as can be. The Berner-street and Mitre-square murders occurred early on Sunday, Sept. 30, and the interval of about five weeks has been unusual, but was probably to be explained by the extraordinary activity of the police after the double event, or due, as some have it, to the temporary absence of the perpetrator from the country. It was on the morning of Saturday, Sept. 8, that Annie Chapman was killed in Hanbury-street, and it was on the last day of August (a Friday) that the Buck's-row tragedy took place. The two earlier murders - the one in George-yard and the other in Osborne-street - are not believed to have been the work of the miscreant who is still at large; but it is a peculiar fact, taken in conjunction with the coincidence of dates already remarked, that the murder of Mrs. Turner, in George-yard, occurred on the 7th day of August.


So my question is, based on this journalist's account of dates here, what sort of class of person would JtR have been to meet the above criteria?

[John G]

I'm not sure that I would accept the basic premise that JtR had to be involved in regular employment. Kosminski is clearly a major suspect and he seemed to have a very sporadic work record. I would also consider Francis Thompson to be a serious suspect and he wasn't working at the time, either. Colin Ireland, a modern serial killer who had long periods of unemployment, made a New Year's resolution to become a serial killer, partially motivated by the fact that he was frustrated at the fact that his life lacked direction and that he had to keep seeking unskilled work. Donald Neilson, Brady and Hindley, Peter Manuel and David Copeland are further examples of unemployed serial killers.

As for a need to work in 1888, an unemployed JtR could have relied on the support of charities, friends, family, or could even have been involved in criminal activities, i.e. street robberies.

[Rosella]

I think the term regular work can mean all sorts of things when you look at a working class district like Whitechapel and surrounding suburbs. So much work was casual, labourers on the docks, at the big markets for porters, in small factories and workshops.People who didn't have regular five-six day a week jobs poured out of London each summer to go hop-picking for a few weeks, for instance.

It just appears to me that, judging by the times and days when Jack struck, that he must have been in some kind of work, otherwise he would have killed during the working day and public holidays wouldn't have mattered.

However, in an area where so much employment was subject to the vagaries of trade, Jack could have been working piecemeal, a couple of days here, three days there, then a gap and another couple of days.

On the other hand he could have been working regularly, six days a week at an abattoir or horse slaughterers or butchers. We just don't know.

[Batman]

The journalist though believes there is a pattern.

FBI page 6 http://vault.fbi.gov/Jack%20the%20Ri...%20of%201/view

[John G]

I think this is a somewhat difficult question, particularly when you consider that Whitechapel was such an impoverished area. Moreover, serial killers of this type often present with anti-social personality disorders, which in my opinion might make it difficult to hold down a steady job.

However, profilers tend to take the view that serial killers are likely to be in regular employment, but I think that conclusion has weak evidential support.

Here are a few more UK serial killers who were unemployed: Micheal Kitto, Peter Dinsdale, John Duffy, Kenneth Erskine, Steve Grieveson, Mark Martin.
Peter Tobin, thought by some to be the Bible John killer, was an odd-job man, so he wasn't in regular employment either.

[Errata]

I think this is a somewhat difficult question, particularly when you consider that Whitechapel was such an impoverished area. Moreover, serial killers of this type often present with anti-social personality disorders, which in my opinion might make it difficult to hold down a steady job.

However, profilers tend to take the view that serial killers are likely to be in regular employment, but I think that conclusion has weak evidential support.

Here are a few more UK serial killers who were unemployed: Micheal Kitto, Peter Dinsdale, John Duffy, Kenneth Erskine, Steve Grieveson, Mark Martin.
Peter Tobin, thought by some to be the Bible John killer, was an odd-job man, so he wasn't in regular employment either.

I think a lot of this, and I am as guilty of this as anyone if not more, is the fact that there really is a basic difference between American serial killers and British ones. And the lion's share of serial killers studied are American. Which makes sense because we have more.

So if you think about it, anyone remotely familiar with both cultures will immediately be able to pick out a Brit in America, or vice versa, without them saying a word. We both stand in line for things, but the guy biding his time reading a newspaper and not bitching at the top of his lungs, likely British. Guy sending his food back at a British restaurant for the second time, that's an American. Not that there aren't crossovers, there are angry queue people in London, it's just the exception not the rule. At least it was 9 years ago.

We have some basic differences. If an American doesn't have a job, they are nothing. If a Brit doesn't have a job, something is wrong. Big difference in perception between disgust and concern. I mean, I'm an American and I have a job, in fact I have four jobs. Nobody recognizes them as jobs because they aren't the right kind of jobs, so I get it in the face about how I need to get a real job all the time. It's a big damn deal here. And since the lion's share of serial killers come from middle and lower class families, they can't not work. There's no cover. Their families cannot support them, they don't want to live in the streets, they may be antisocial but they choke it down in order to be able to afford to live the way they want to live. Which tends to be pretty isolated. Never mind the fact that no serial killer wants the endless questions as to why they don''t work and those questions are endless. People knocking on your door all the time telling you that a factory position just opened up in your neighbor's nephews plant. No one accepts a lack of job. No one lets it go.

American serial killers have jobs in general. Maybe a series of small stuff, but they work. If they don't that's a big spotlight shining on them. The only way to avoid it is to be a drifter. In a way, it teaches American serial killers control that British serial killers tend not to have.

But of course, that's now. Was that true in 1888? Kosminski didn't work because he couldn't. And he was so sick it was killing him. And he had erratic family support until he essentially went to jail. And not for the first time. And that's sort of a pattern for the unemployed in that era. The only way to get assistance was to go to church or go to jail. Do we think Jack was getting hand outs at a church, who by the way would not help the mentally ill, so factor that in. Or did he go to jail to get three squares a day? There wasn't a lot of idle hands stuff for men. Picking rags and the like. Mostly women's work. So if he wasn't working, how was he living? Literally staying alive?

[John G]

Hi Errata,

Yes, I agree it would probably be easier today for a undetected serial killer to claim benefits in the UK than America, particularly if they had some kind of Autistic Spectrum Disorder, as they might then potentially qualify for incapacity benefits. This might also be the case for someone with drug or alcohol dependency issues.

Of course, as you also point out 1888 would be very different. It is possible that they might turn to friends or the church for support, like Francis Thompson, but I'm sure, as you say, this wouldn't be an option in most cases.

However, I feel that it is likely that if JtR was employed it is more likely to be self employment, like William Bury,who at any rate seemed to mainly rely on his wife for support, or irregular employment.

[Abby Normal]

The question is really asking did JtR hold down a 5 day week 9-5 job or similar when looking back at 1888 and the type of work among the different classes in London.

I think it is safe to say that work for the impoverished meant 7 days a week with the Sabbath kept for Jews and Christians. I wonder how those days split out between them?

I find it hard to believe that JtR didn't hold a regular job and didn't kill on his days off or holidays or close to both. This is because journalists at the time seemed to propose he killed on his days off.

http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../dt881110.html

The Daily Telegraph
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 1888

From the sketch map of the locality given it will be seen that the sites of all the seven murders, five of which are, without any hesitation or doubt, ascribed by the police to one man, are contained within a limited area. A comparison of the dates reveals remarkable coincidences.

The murderer has invariably chosen the latter part of the week, and when the deed has not been committed on the last day of the month it has taken place as near the 7th or 8th as can be. The Berner-street and Mitre-square murders occurred early on Sunday, Sept. 30, and the interval of about five weeks has been unusual, but was probably to be explained by the extraordinary activity of the police after the double event, or due, as some have it, to the temporary absence of the perpetrator from the country. It was on the morning of Saturday, Sept. 8, that Annie Chapman was killed in Hanbury-street, and it was on the last day of August (a Friday) that the Buck's-row tragedy took place. The two earlier murders - the one in George-yard and the other in Osborne-street - are not believed to have been the work of the miscreant who is still at large; but it is a peculiar fact, taken in conjunction with the coincidence of dates already remarked, that the murder of Mrs. Turner, in George-yard, occurred on the 7th day of August.


So my question is, based on this journalist's account of dates here, what sort of class of person would JtR have been to meet the above criteria?

Hi Batman
I think it points to being in some type of regular employment:
Murders occur on weekends and holidays.
None of the witnesses describe a totally destitute or disheveled suspect-on the contrary they describe someone reasonably dressed and rescpectable appearance.
He had the money to buy drinks, perhaps other things for the victims, and at the very least enough to show/give the victims.

I think a key might be not only the pattern of killing on weekends and holidays, but when during the month. The ripper only killed in the beginning or end of the month.

It might behoove someone with good research skills and/or Victorian employment type expertise to take a look see at what type of employment would prohibit someone from killing in the middle of the month. Perhaps a job that takes you out of the city during that time??

[Dane_F]

Maybe it was less about when he had off work and more about when there were lots of people on the streets.

[Damaso Marte]

I have no basis on which to speculate as to the Ripper's employment status. I'm on record as stating that I do not believe the Ripper was insane - but there are insane people with jobs and sane people who are unemployed.

Statistically speaking though, the Victorian unemployment rate would have been rather low, right? Odds are that a Whitechapel resident would at least be able to work odd jobs.

[lynn cates]

a new beginning

Hello Abby.

"The ripper only killed in the beginning or end of the month."

Not sure why the 9th counts as the beginning?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Abby.

"The ripper only killed in the beginning or end of the month."

Not sure why the 9th counts as the beginning?

Cheers.
LC

Lord Mayor's Procession was on the 9th. It was a holiday I believe.

[GUT]

Lord Mayor's Procession was on the 9th. It was a holiday I believe.

Holiday or not, and that is hotly debated, it's still not the start of the month.

[Batman]

Holiday or not, and that is hotly debated, it's still not the start of the month.

Why is it debated? Isn't this parade closing streets due to the volume of attendance?

[GUT]

Why is it debated? Isn't this parade closing streets due to the volume of attendance?

There is a lengthy thread on it somewhere, I'll try and find it.

Even if some streets are closed it doesn't prove it was a public holiday.