The Ripper & Ed Gein

[Ausgirl]

To Ausgirl

I mentioned Peter Sutcliffe as he targeted prostitutes like Jack and seems like more of a modern day Jack the Ripper than Ed Gein. Also Ed Gein strikes me as extremely delusional I'm not saying Jack didn't have delusions just that Ed Gein was more delusional.

Cheers John

Thanks, John. Was Sutcliffe sexually motivated, though? Or was it sheer hatred with sexual gratification neither here nor there? I always thought he was primarily a sex fiend. Could be wrong!

[John Wheat]

To Ausgirl

Yes I believe there was a sexual element to Sutcliffe's murders although this is debatable. “...there isn’t a lot of torture in these cases and in the main they are relatively quick, what we call blitz attacks, extremely violent and extremely sudden blitz attacks, without actually an awful lot of sexual behaviour accompanied in them.”
Professor Laurence Alison, Forensic Psychologist
But there was arguably a sexual element to the Ripper murders. Also they both used blitz attacks.

Cheers John

[Errata]

Errata, I have to concur with just about everything you've said there. I too have long held a deal of sympathy (albeit a barge pole's worth) for Gein and the horror his life was. And yup, he was unintentionally molded and crafted to become exactly what he was. Action, followed by consequence.

But - is it possible the Ripper was of a similar nature?

He too didn't prolong death. He killed, and then did he what he was compelled to do with the bodies. He took bits with him.

Has anyone ever come across reports from the area, and era, of bodies being mutilated in a morgue, say, or gravesites? If so, this could possibly be an avenue to look down. I mean, it is for Ed. On the off chance they were anything alike, it could be worth it.

It's absolutely possible.

Ed Gein's nature was that of a collector. He wasn't a rapist, he wasn't a destroyer, he wasn't a possessor. Someone who kills because he wants to own them body and soul.

He mainly predated on the dead. He wasnt interested in hurting people. Not for any idealistic reason, but because why put forth the effort when what you need is free and buried under six feet of dirt. It was a resource thing. Both the living and the dead were potential resources, but the dead were easier and cheaper.

There are two kinds of collectors. Personal and impersonal. Personal collectors choose a victim for a reason. They know them, they love them, their hair color is right, their build is right... the connection is personal. Impersonal collectors are the scariest thing there is, and they kill people and harvest them the way we kill pigs and harvest them. Anyone could be a victim. I don't think we've had one in the US or Britain, but I think there was one in Australia, and I know of three in South America.

Gein was both. He was impersonal with the things he collected. He had a skin fetish, that was impersonal. But when it came to the masks and the suit, that was personal. It is possible that had he finished the suit, he would have just gone back to digging up the dead. There is no indication that killing gave him any kind of pleasure.

JTR could be a collector. But not an impersonal one. If he had been, he would simply have attacked the first person he came across. Jack had a type. So that makes it personal. Gein was collecting for a reason we all understand. At least it makes a twisted kind of sense to say "oh, well that was for the woman suit." Jack is less obvious. And he is venting some frustration. He is very clinical when it comes to the mutilations, but he really wails on their necks, so that's definitely an emotional thing. But the taking of the organs seems pretty matter of fact. He is not punishing them, he is not torturing them, he isn't destroying them, he isn't treating them like people at all except for the neck damage.

It's pretty characteristic of either a collector or a balancer. Balancers try to balance some cosmic wrong. It's personal in that they have suffered from this wrong, but they do not see their victims as abusers or whatever. They are simply something that needs to be put right. A man who feels there is a cosmic imbalance because he was born to a prostitute, and prostitutes should never bear children might take the uterus of a prostitute with no judgement or emotion. He is simply righting a wrong. Balancing an imbalance. It is often a delusion, though sometimes the result of the brutal logic consistent with someone who feels no social attachments.

But if Jack was a collector, he was collecting specific things for a specific reason. So what does a guy do with two uteruses, a kidney, and a heart? Why does he want them?

So that's the big question.

[Abby Normal]

.. so as not to derail a thread, and much thanks to Errata for sparking this thought with her posts - always interesting conversations, with E..

Was JtR closer in nature to Ed Gein than say, Bundy, Dahmer and Kemper?

I said (rightly or wrongly, heh) in a post reply to Errata just now, that out of all of the well-known serial killers, Ed Gein was the ONLY true postmortem mutilator. Technically, he was not a 'serial killer' but if he wasn't caught there's little doubt he would've kept killing if fresh female corpses weren't otherwise available.

I'm thinking it's not very accurate to compare JtR to the rest, as he does not appear to be sadistic (he killed quickly, mutilated after, he wasn't bent on causing prolonged suffering). He doesn't appear to have raped his victims, while being obsessed with their vaginas and wombs and breasts.

I have pondered, in the past, if JtR was a necrophile (or similar..) for that reason. But Gein wasn't, I think, really a necrophile as such. Sex wasn't his motive. I think Gein just enjoyed the illusion (or delusion) of having 100% control of his dominating mum.

Anyhow that's my major JtR thought of the day. I think it's probably the closest parallel in behaviour, though JtR was likely a good bit smarter than Gein (who was caught, and relatively quickly, as he was killing respectable townsfolk, not women in at-risk lifestyles -and- leaving eyesmacking trails of evidence behind him).

Hi ausgirl
The closest to the ripper that I've found is William Suff the Riverside Prostitute Killer. Nasty stuff.

[Ausgirl]

This is why I love this place.

Errata, the things you've written about Gein here are possibly the most concise, accurate (in my opinion) and insightful words I've read about the man anywhere. It's a pleasure to read and ponder your posts, it really is. Also, refreshing that someone else can feel/admit to genuine compassion for a man like that. Albeit at a substantial remove, I totally get how that works.

John, thanks - it's been years since I read anything about Sutcliiffe, and it's very interesting to me that there's questions regarding his motive. I'm glad you've raised this, I am long overdue for another look at this guy. I think it might be a decade since last close look, jeez. And yes, I think "sexual element" needs to be looked at from some very different angles, when it comes to killers of this nature.

Abby - I've never *heard* of William Suff! How's that possible, I asked myself, ha. Sheer numbers, is probably why, there's just so many of 'em over there. Many thanks for this afternoon's post-chores internet research rabbit hole.

I've tentatively begun looking for Ripper-era reports re interference with corpses, morgue attendants being fired, and the like. Not expecting much in the way of results but you never know.

(eta: I am aware of Trow's Robert Mann theory... what I'm after are actual reports of potential corpse mutilations, morgue scandals, anything along those lines, no suspect in mind at all)

[Ausgirl]

Errata - that Aussie case.. was it Dupas you were thinking of? We haven't had that many mutilators, and Dupas (who killed one victim literally a minute's walk from my current home) is probably the most relevant I can think of atm (he took breasts). I've just spent a few weeks reading up on him and Dennis Ferguson, seeing a lot of parallels between the early portions of their lives and also Kemper's. I have an off topic theory regarding these men I might just post here somewhere in future, I'd love your input.

[Errata]

This is why I love this place.

Errata, the things you've written about Gein here are possibly the most concise, accurate (in my opinion) and insightful words I've read about the man anywhere. It's a pleasure to read and ponder your posts, it really is. Also, refreshing that someone else can feel/admit to genuine compassion for a man like that. Albeit at a substantial remove, I totally get how that works.

When I first started doing research for a profiler/cult expert, the first thing he told me was that everyone I would ever read about, interview, meet with was going to defy every categorization I've ever put people in. He said that if I was ever going to understand any of it, I had to create my own categories. And I did, and once I did, a lot more things made sense. I based it on needs.

Every human being ever operates on need. The need for safety, the need for pleasure, for control, for expending rage, for expressing themselves, for positive peer regard. No different than our needs. Everybody has one thing that drives them more than anything else. For me, it's stability. I'm Bipolar, which by definition makes me a little fragile. I need to feel safe in my own head. And my whole life people have moved mountains to make sure I'd stay stable, but no one ever thought to make me independent.

Gein was the same as me. He needed stability. He was fragile because he wasn't smart, and he was terribly abused. His mother did everything for him, so he never had to learn how to be on his own. But she died, and he panicked. He had to replace her. But she twisted him around so badly that his options were limited, and unfortunately he had to get creative. Never in his life was he exposed to anyone or anything that would tell him that what he did was not okay. In some ways he was like one of those wild children found in forests. When my parents die, I will be in the same position he was in. I'm smarter and I have known more of the world, but in that I'm lucky, not good (as we say here). No inherent moral superiority has given me any advantage over Gein. I wasn't abused. I was cherished. And I was absolutely encouraged to find a partner to go through life with. That's why I won't make a dad-suit when he dies. But none of those positive things have been my doing. That was the strength of my parents, not me.

How could I not empathize with him? There but for the grace of God go I. Or any of us.

Gacy on the other hand, **** that guy.

[Abby Normal]

This is why I love this place.

Errata, the things you've written about Gein here are possibly the most concise, accurate (in my opinion) and insightful words I've read about the man anywhere. It's a pleasure to read and ponder your posts, it really is. Also, refreshing that someone else can feel/admit to genuine compassion for a man like that. Albeit at a substantial remove, I totally get how that works.

John, thanks - it's been years since I read anything about Sutcliiffe, and it's very interesting to me that there's questions regarding his motive. I'm glad you've raised this, I am long overdue for another look at this guy. I think it might be a decade since last close look, jeez. And yes, I think "sexual element" needs to be looked at from some very different angles, when it comes to killers of this nature.

Abby - I've never *heard* of William Suff! How's that possible, I asked myself, ha. Sheer numbers, is probably why, there's just so many of 'em over there. Many thanks for this afternoon's post-chores internet research rabbit hole.

I've tentatively begun looking for Ripper-era reports re interference with corpses, morgue attendants being fired, and the like. Not expecting much in the way of results but you never know.

(eta: I am aware of Trow's Robert Mann theory... what I'm after are actual reports of potential corpse mutilations, morgue scandals, anything along those lines, no suspect in mind at all)

Hi
Ausgirl
You can find Suff on the crime library (just google it). Like I said, he is about as close to the ripper as you can find. He targeted prostitutes, strangled to death and then Extensive post mortem mutilations to genitalia and abdomen with the knife. He stopped short of taking away internal organs but did remove and take away the breasts. And left them posed very similar to the ripper. There was also allegations that he also cannibalized some, which I think there is a good chance the ripper did also.

The one victim that got away, said he picked her up, was very normal, even charming, but then when they got to the secluded place he suddenly became angry and attacked her, punching and trying to strangle her.

He was an average joe, blue collar type who the police knew as he was a county worker, who even delivered supplies to the investigators office.

He had a violent past, and was convicted first for beating to death his toddler daughter. I think it probable that the ripper was a lot like this guy, major anger issues among His many problems.

[Errata]

Errata - that Aussie case.. was it Dupas you were thinking of? We haven't had that many mutilators, and Dupas (who killed one victim literally a minute's walk from my current home) is probably the most relevant I can think of atm (he took breasts). I've just spent a few weeks reading up on him and Dennis Ferguson, seeing a lot of parallels between the early portions of their lives and also Kemper's. I have an off topic theory regarding these men I might just post here somewhere in future, I'd love your input.

Actually he was Canadian. I don't know why I said Australian, except that I remembered the extradition changing my mind on the death penalty (in a weird way), and I pretty much never pay attention to Canada. It was the guy who used humans and kittens as essentially performance art? Magnotta I think? People were resources. And the only thing dictating who was going to be his next art piece was who he could get into his apartment.

As for your theory, I'd love to hear it. Human behavior is my thing. Ever since the day I screwed up with a door, I pushed, and it was supposed to be pulled. But it had a horizontal bar on it. And my very soul cried in outrage that I should be expected to pull a horizontal bar. The guy who owned the store said he hung the door backward. And I realized that someone out there made a ton of money just by noticing that we as humans push horizontal bars and pull vertical ones. And doors have been designed that way ever since to improve traffic flow. I want to be that guy.

[Ausgirl]

Abby, I spent a good portion of last evening doing just that -- and I can certainly see the comparison. I'm hunting up more information on Suff today. Thanks again for bringing him to my attention.

I also did a little brushing up on Sutcliffe. He's another potentially analogous one, for sure. He killed a LOT more than five.. and was escalating fast. imagine if he'd never been caught. I swear I have a book on him somewhere, probably in storage, must have a look for it.

Errata, I'll post it up when I figure out where, cheers.

What I'm interested in looking at now, with Suff and Sutcliffe to consider, is how much damage was done to any of their victims before and after death.

My idea about JtR at the moment is that he was strictly a post-mortem mutilator and -- akin to Errata's take on Gein -- wasn't after dealing with a live person at all. Interesting, E, that you suggest both a personal and impersonal aspect to JtR (re the throat wounds), will be thinking about that.

[MacGuffin]

Hi Errata,

As for your theory, I'd love to hear it. Human behavior is my thing. Ever since the day I screwed up with a door, I pushed, and it was supposed to be pulled. But it had a horizontal bar on it. And my very soul cried in outrage that I should be expected to pull a horizontal bar. The guy who owned the store said he hung the door backward. And I realized that someone out there made a ton of money just by noticing that we as humans push horizontal bars and pull vertical ones. And doors have been designed that way ever since to improve traffic flow. I want to be that guy.

First, let me say thanks for sharing your personal insights towards Gein from a Bipolar patient's PoV, as a clinical depressive, I realize how much courage it must take for you to discuss this publicly.
Secondly, and a bit OT, your observation of the push/pull operation of public doors and their handle mounting is spot on, and the designing is not just for traffic flow, but also for safety purposes.
This is a pet peeve of mine, as I spent many years as a firefighter and first responder, and can not refrain from compulsively commenting when a door is improperly hung, or violates fire codes: "Pull to enter, push to exit - damn it, it's a fire code!"

Back on topic, I've also felt somewhat sympathetic about Gein, as he was almost doomed/destined from birth to act as he did from the narrowed parameters of his small, sad view of the world.
That being said, I also think that he was placed in the best possible place of confinement after his crimes.
I don't think he fully comprehended the severity of what he did, and the courts understood this when sentencing him to a criminal mental hospital instead of a state prison.

Best regards,
MacGuffin

[Ausgirl]

It's interesting to compare Gein to somebody more often perceived as being "Ripper-like", like Sutcliffe.

For one, Gein (as opposed to the killers in my theory thread, now posted) wasn't glib, or all that clever. He doesn't really fit the sociopath profile most often seen in the mutilators who get away with long strings of murders, or for any serious amount of time. Ergo, he was caught pretty quickly.

Sutcliffe, it seems, was both 'lucky' and glib. He does align more strongly with the mutilators I've been looking at (Kemper, Percy, Dupas, Dahmer) that way.

However, all of those men I named were sexual sadists (Kemper claims he isn't but I call BS). They all had, as a primary motive, a deep sexual thrill gained from controlling and abusing their victims, both alive and dead.

Gein didn't rape. He killed quick, and harvested what he wanted, the end.

JtR apparently didn't rape (though this is not concrete fact, in my mind), he also 'harvested' parts he wanted, leaving behind the parts he did not.

So I guess what I want to work out is -- is there definitely a sexual element to his crimes, a la Sutcliffe, Kemper, Dahmer, et al. OR was he a slightly smarter Eddie Gein, gormlessly creating corpses to harvest from (and/or simply vent on), as he had none handy.

If so - what precisely tells us that JtR's murders are different to Gein's? They both focussed on vaginas and uteruses, so let's for argument's sake leave that part out. No pun intended.

[Batman]

.Was JtR closer in nature to Ed Gein than say, Bundy, Dahmer and Kemper?

What sets JtR well apart from any other serial killer is his victimology because of the time and place. He selected a certain type of prostitute/poor woman which caused a massive scale environmental change of the East End by the government to put an end to the murders. So the type of victims Jack had are no longer really with us today or since the turn of the 20th century their numbers dwindled and the way they did business changed.

[Errata]

Interesting, E, that you suggest both a personal and impersonal aspect to JtR (re the throat wounds), will be thinking about that.

What can I say? People are complicated.

I have this ex who every time I think about him, I can't help but think about how I was so much more than he deserved, and how he just wasn't good enough. Not for me, but he wasn't good enough to qualify as a human being. And if he was on fire I wouldn't piss on him to put him out.

But when he told a mutual friend that he was about to break up with me anyway because I was getting too old for him (he liked his women 18 and 19. I was 21. He was 30.) I cried for three days.

I hated him. I thanked god I got out. I never wanted to even hear his name ever again. mean, it was bad. But the idea that he didn't want me hurt me terribly. The two states seem mutually exclusive, but they're not. People can be equally moved by two opposite forces at the same time. And if I can manage to cry over a man I don't even categorize as human, Jack can be impersonal and personal at the same time.

People are complicated.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

First, let me say thanks for sharing your personal insights towards Gein from a Bipolar patient's PoV, as a clinical depressive, I realize how much courage it must take for you to discuss this publicly.


Best regards,
MacGuffin

People have been saying this a lot to me lately, about how much courage it takes to reveal my mental illness. The truth is, it takes zero courage. I have been officially Bipolar since I was eight. I was symptomatic at four. So this is my whole life. And generally, I'm fine. Of course it affects me, of course the medication affects me, and of course it altered the course of my life beyond anything I was raised to expect. But by the time I was 14, I was done apologizing. I mean, I didn't ask for this. By the time I was 18, I realized I had nothing to apologize for. No reason to hide.

I was raised in the belief that Bipolar Disorder was an illness. Like diabetes. I have to take medication in order to be okay, but my experience with my illness was no different than the experience of a diabetic. I have to monitor myself. I have to be realistic about my limits. I have to be honest with my doctors, and not being honest with friends and coworkers only sets me up to fail. I don't want people to find out because something goes wrong. If they know about it, they can react accordingly.

I didn't do this. I didn't ask for this. I didn't screw up, I didn't fail, I didn't do anything wrong. And even when I'm at my worst, I still don't do anything wrong. I have never hurt someone. I have never hurt myself. And even if I did, it still wouldn't be some reflection of me. This was done to me. If I had brain damage sustained during an attack, people would fall all over themselves to help me. But I was born like this.

You have clinical depression, and I know how that affects self esteem. I have major depression about 80% of the year. But for 37 years I have surrounded myself only with people who see things my way. I had to cut off most of my dad's side of the family. I've lost potential friends. But I have the magic words. Words every one of us should have. "**** off".

You are afraid of me? **** off. I don't need you.
You think I should just "get over it"? **** off. You are a moron.
You think I should pray this away? **** off and take a science class.
You can't be around me without worrying that I'm going to throw myself out a window or something? **** off. You're going to get an ulcer.

Even at my most depressed... I'm a catch, baby. I'm smart, I'm resourceful, I'm giving, I'm compassionate, I think I'm hilarious. Yeah I have flaws. Who doesn't? But I'm worth it. And my Bipolar is not anyone's problem but mine. I don't want people to try and make that problem theirs. People can get on board, or they can **** OFF.

I will agonize over my social awkwardness. I will feel terrible about my looks, my weight, my level of success, my hang ups. But the Bipolar? That's not me. Any more than high blood pressure is me.

But none of it works until you realize that you have a disease, not a failing. If you wouldn't react to having diabetes that way, don't react to a mood disorder that way. Neither you nor a diabetic can process certain chemicals the way you are supposed to. And both of you have the capacity for very strange behavior when you are not well. Nobody fears a diabetic. Anyone who fears mood disorders? They can **** off. They don't even know what to fear. I can't feel guilty because someone else is a moron. Literally. I can't summon any emotion but disgust.

See what I'm saying? If somebody wants to make it a problem, they can do it on their own. And there is nothing positive I can get out of having one of those people in my life. It's not my fault, it is my problem, and mine alone, and if you have a problem with me because of something that happened me in the womb, or you have a problem with me because of something someone else did, or you have a problem with me because you think it's up to me to prove you wrong? Let's all say the magic words now... ****k Off.