The Ripper & Ed Gein

[Ausgirl]

.. so as not to derail a thread, and much thanks to Errata for sparking this thought with her posts - always interesting conversations, with E..

Was JtR closer in nature to Ed Gein than say, Bundy, Dahmer and Kemper?

I said (rightly or wrongly, heh) in a post reply to Errata just now, that out of all of the well-known serial killers, Ed Gein was the ONLY true postmortem mutilator. Technically, he was not a 'serial killer' but if he wasn't caught there's little doubt he would've kept killing if fresh female corpses weren't otherwise available.

I'm thinking it's not very accurate to compare JtR to the rest, as he does not appear to be sadistic (he killed quickly, mutilated after, he wasn't bent on causing prolonged suffering). He doesn't appear to have raped his victims, while being obsessed with their vaginas and wombs and breasts.

I have pondered, in the past, if JtR was a necrophile (or similar..) for that reason. But Gein wasn't, I think, really a necrophile as such. Sex wasn't his motive. I think Gein just enjoyed the illusion (or delusion) of having 100% control of his dominating mum.

Anyhow that's my major JtR thought of the day. I think it's probably the closest parallel in behaviour, though JtR was likely a good bit smarter than Gein (who was caught, and relatively quickly, as he was killing respectable townsfolk, not women in at-risk lifestyles -and- leaving eyesmacking trails of evidence behind him).

[GUT]

Whilst those are good thoughts, personally I don't see much value in trying to compare Serial Killers they are all different.

[Ausgirl]

If comparing behaviours holds no value, the FBI's BSU may as well pack up and go home, right?

Sure, they're all different in some particulars, being all unique snowflakes of humanity, lalala. But they also have some important things in common in general and in particular, where the motivation is similar - a good many things in common, actually, in some cases stretching quite visibly back to early childhood (where that info is available).

[GUT]

If comparing behaviours holds no value, the FBI's BSU may as well pack up and go home, right?

Some think that they should.

[Ausgirl]

Well, sure --- however, by extension of what you're saying, in dismissing the value of comparisons of behaviours, there's no point comparing any one human being to another at all. Right? Which is okay, if you want to think so. But why clutter up a thread clearly inviting discussion of a thing, with one-line dismissals of that thing's value?

You're no fun at all today, GUT. Gout playing up?

[GUT]

Well, sure --- however, by extension of what you're saying, in dismissing the value of comparisons of behaviours, there's no point comparing any one human being to another at all. Right? Which is okay, if you want to think so. But why clutter up a thread clearly inviting discussion of a thing, with one-line dismissals of that thing's value?

Actually I don't see any value n comparing behaviours or comparing one human being to another. I've never seen proof of any SK being caught purely [or even in the main] based on what BSU says.

You're no fun at all today, GUT. Gout playing up?

Actually my back, and perhaps for that reason should bow out for a while, maybe I'm more cranky than normal.

[Ausgirl]

Oy that back pain.. I'm in the same cranky boat this week. We could compare the effects of back-pain crankiness on internet communication - but there'd be no point!!!!

And just to quibble with you, as I must - seeking to understand human nature is extremely worthwhile, in itself.

Comparing the Ripper to Ed Gein, as opposed to the majority of serial killers who are all quite different *and different in much the same ways* to Ed Gein, might be something interesting to ponder. For some.

Here, have an oxy, I have plenty to spare. Feel better soon, mate.

[GUT]

Oy that back pain.. I'm in the same cranky boat this week. We could compare the effects of back-pain crankiness on internet communication - but there'd be no point!!!!

And just to quibble with you, as I must - seeking to understand human nature is extremely worthwhile, in itself.

Comparing the Ripper to Ed Gein, as opposed to the majority of serial killers who are all quite different *and different in much the same ways* to Ed Gein, might be something interesting to ponder. For some.

Here, have an oxy, I have plenty to spare. Feel better soon, mate.

Bloody Oxy don't work, no opiates do they say I've burnt out the receptors. So t might be back in a wheelchair for a while. Just when I think it's behind me.

[Ausgirl]

Chin up, lad. Wheels aren't so terrible. Think of the opportunities to ram people you'd otherwise not get away with. Plus, wheelies.

We need a cranky old gits thread. I'm in.

[GUT]

Chin up, lad. Wheels aren't so terrible. Think of the opportunities to ram people you'd otherwise not get away with. Plus, wheelies.

Thanks for that.

After 5 years in either a chair or bed, and then nearly 8 months out, I'm not sure I'll handle it if I have to go back again.

We need a cranky old gits thread. I'm in.

At times like this I'd be chairman and CEO and Managing Director all rolled up in one.

[John Wheat]

To Ausgirl

I think it would be interesting to compare psych profiles of Ed Gein and Jack. Although possibly comparing Jack's psych profile to that of Peter Sutcliffe might be a more useful exercise. I think psych profiling has it's place however even it's supporters tend to regard it as an art form rather than an exact science.

Cheers John

[Errata]

Ed Gein is one of maybe three serial killers since the label was coined that is deserving of pity. I mean, poor bastard...

But he also made himself a suit out of women and would go out next to the barn and dance in the moonlight. So, as much as I pity him, I'm not going to get within arms reach of him.

Gein was not a sexual sadist. And he mostly predated on the dead because he didn't particularly want to hurt anyone. After his initial confession, he ate a slice of pie and never talked about it again. So we don't know exactly what he thought he was going to accomplish.

He had an abusive and domineering mother who cut him off from all other humans, and ensured that he could never have sex with a woman. She told him straight up that all women were whores who would steal his soul and send him to hell except for her. She was an emissary of god or some such. His father upheld his mother's teachings until he died.

So he grew up as an extreme submissive with a sadistic mother who made all his decisions for him. When she died, he was lost. He started grave robbing because he didn't know what women looked like under their clothes, and this likely started before she died. He had no other way of finding out, and grabbing women in town didn't occur to him. It was not sexual, but it was out of sexual curiosity. It's why he had a box of labia. He didn't sexually fetishize them, he coveted them because he didn't have one. And he viewed people like deer. Useful, but not of such worth that their lives should be spared if he had need.

He thought that the only person who could help him deal with his life was his mother. But she died. So if he couldn't have his mother, he was going to be his mother.

He didn't want to be a woman, this was not some bizarre transsexual thing. And this was not about sex. He wanted to be strong and independent. And he couldn't do that without becoming the only person he ever knew who was like that.

His case is very bizarre, and not just because of what he did. 99% of people who go through what he went through end up broken, with fragmented personalities and the inability to ever understand social connections. The are shut ins. He dug up dead women to skin them and take parts. He graduated to assembling these parts into a suit, and then killing women to get the parts he couldn't get from the local graveyard. He was never socially viable. And he had little interest in other people, except for a neighbor child he babysat. And you can imagine the nightmares that poor kid had.

And to the best of anyone's knowledge he was never diagnosed nor treated for a specific mental illness, despite the fact that what he did was bat **** crazy. He was diagnosed schizophrenic, within the year that was refuted. He was diagnosed as a sexual psychopath, but that also was refuted. He's like, the Washington Monument for shrinks, everyone who could conceivably get to him wanted to evaluate him. And nobody came up with anything. Every time someone thinks they have a diagnosis, it turns out they forgot something important that refutes their findings.

Best guess, he wasn't crazy. He was exactly who he was raised to be. Given his upbringing, given the people in his life, given his IQ, his isolation, his role models he was never going to be anything other that what he was. It's not a dysfunction in his head. It's just cardinal proof that nurture can corrupt nature to the point where nature is destroyed.

Mental illness requires behavior contrary to your truth. Sobbing in a dark room when you have nothing to feel sad for. Seeing things that logic tells you cannot possibly be there. Gein's behavior was completely consistent with his truth.

[Ausgirl]

Thanks, John. I'm not one of those folks who sees profiling as a faultless predictor, but I do think much of the work they do is invaluable to gaining better understanding of what makes killers tick.

Why would Sutcliffe be better, in your opinion?

I zoomed in on Gein, because his two known murders were all about the bodies, rather than the killing itself, and I've long suspected this to be the case for Jack as well. A sadist would have left them alive for the ripping.. and I think none of his victims were. So if it wasn't all about dead bodies, what was it about then, is the question I'm left with there.

I've also wondered whether, like Gein, the Ripper had access to bodies in some other way prior to taking live victims. He seems to have popped up out of nowhere, and if Millwood and co were not early victims showing a progression of his MO (and thus being the 'somewhere' Jack popped out of), perhaps he was focussed on the dead to begin with. And, like Gein, either ran out of 'material' or just wanted them fresh as possible.

[John Wheat]

To Ausgirl

I mentioned Peter Sutcliffe as he targeted prostitutes like Jack and seems like more of a modern day Jack the Ripper than Ed Gein. Also Ed Gein strikes me as extremely delusional I'm not saying Jack didn't have delusions just that Ed Gein was more delusional.

Cheers John

[Ausgirl]

Errata, I have to concur with just about everything you've said there. I too have long held a deal of sympathy (albeit a barge pole's worth) for Gein and the horror his life was. And yup, he was unintentionally molded and crafted to become exactly what he was. Action, followed by consequence.

But - is it possible the Ripper was of a similar nature?

He too didn't prolong death. He killed, and then did he what he was compelled to do with the bodies. He took bits with him.

Has anyone ever come across reports from the area, and era, of bodies being mutilated in a morgue, say, or gravesites? If so, this could possibly be an avenue to look down. I mean, it is for Ed. On the off chance they were anything alike, it could be worth it.