Why not always indoors?

[RockySullivan]

Gosh, it would be pretty messy if Torso killer dismembered bodies in his own apartment. Many killers who dismember their victims do so in the bathroom, utilising the bath. Trouble is, in the 1870's-1880's many homes didn't possess a bathroom.

Torso killer may have had access to a property with a lot of isolated outbuildings, of course. However, isn't it more likely that he had access either to some sort of warehouse near the Thames, where he could work in private undisturbed, or to a butchers or horse slaughterers to which he could gain access at night or evenings and where the presence of blood wouldn't be noticeable?

Many butchers had carts and casual bystanders wouldn't take notice if meat wrapped in linen was placed on top of dismembered victims. I do wonder whether Torso killer (whom I don't believe was Jack) had access to a vehicle which wouldn't attract notice when he dumped bodies at night. Something like a night soil man with his cart perhaps, who helped him dump the bodies?

Those are great points rosella. If torso did use a warehouse /slaughterhouse , shed, basement etc how did he get the women to go there alive? It's possible Torso used a location very similar to the basement at 29 Hanbury street.

And yes great point about the disposal. It makes sense that Torso had a job that involved a cart or vehicle that was expected to be on the street at night.

[Rosella]

I've just been reading about John Haigh, the Brit known as the Acid Bath Killer. He lived elsewhere, but had a shed-like warehouse which housed his vats of acid and other equipment.

He posed as an inventor and did know quite a bit about engineering. Several times Haigh span stories and his victims went there with him, in the last case he pretended they were going to discuss a new process for false nails.

I'm not saying this would have happened in Torso's case, but it's amazing what stories people swallow sometimes. Torso could have said something like "My landlady is a bit strict, but there is a room at the back of my work which is cosy and where we won't be disturbed and can have a drink."

He could have said that he was an artist, used an old warehouse as a studio to paint pictures of the river, and invited the woman to view them, if he killed in daylight.

If it was a cold or rainy night and they had already had a few drinks at a nearby pub, it wouldn't take much to lure a prostitute off the streets to his bolthole, IMO.

[RockySullivan]

I've just been reading about John Haigh, the Brit known as the Acid Bath Killer. He lived elsewhere, but had a shed-like warehouse which housed his vats of acid and other equipment.

He posed as an inventor and did know quite a bit about engineering. Several times Haigh span stories and his victims went there with him, in the last case he pretended they were going to discuss a new process for false nails.

I'm not saying this would have happened in Torso's case, but it's amazing what stories people swallow sometimes. Torso could have said something like "My landlady is a bit strict, but there is a room at the back of my work which is cosy and where we won't be disturbed and can have a drink."

He could have said that he was an artist, used an old warehouse as a studio to paint pictures of the river, and invited the woman to view them, if he killed in daylight.

If it was a cold or rainy night and they had already had a few drinks at a nearby pub, it wouldn't take much to lure a prostitute off the streets to his bolthole, IMO.

More great points. Elizabeth Jackson was sleeping on the embankment homeless and pregnant right? So what could have brought her to the torso's lair? Perhaps it was somewhere not far from where she had been staying?

[Michael W Richards]

Lighten up, Michael.

You think a serial killer being on the loose in Whitechapel is in the realm of make-believe, but believe Stride could be a spy, based on no evidence at all. I couldn't help but find the funny side in that.

The point I was making Harry is that there is no evidence that a serial killer was working Whitechapel during the Fall of 1888, there are a lot of assumptions that one was. However, its documented that Unfortunates were used by the police to spy on...shall we say "undesirables".. in the locality.

So...there are precedents for what I suggest may be the reason Liz was killed, or why she was there dressed nicely in the first place. Since none of us really know at this point. What we do know about Liz Strides killer is that he wanted her dead, and there is no evidence his desires went beyond that.

By the by, I do believe a serial killer was involved in the Canonical Five murders, I just don't believe or see evidence that he killed more than 2 or 3 of the victims within it.

[Michael W Richards]

Its worth adding that we also know Liz dated a brother of a policeman while working as a nanny, that may explain why she might have been approached to work clandestinely.

[RockySullivan]

The point I was making Harry is that there is no evidence that a serial killer was working Whitechapel during the Fall of 1888, there are a lot of assumptions that one was. However, its documented that Unfortunates were used by the police to spy on...shall we say "undesirables".. in the locality.

So...there are precedents for what I suggest may be the reason Liz was killed, or why she was there dressed nicely in the first place. Since none of us really know at this point. What we do know about Liz Strides killer is that he wanted her dead, and there is no evidence his desires went beyond that.

By the by, I do believe a serial killer was involved in the Canonical Five murders, I just don't believe or see evidence that he killed more than 2 or 3 of the victims within it.

And the torso's were all left whom? You have body parts appearing in the thames, the embankment, one below a railway arch on pinchin and one in the vault of new Scotland Yard. Didn't the medical examiners state they were done by the same hand? How many individuals in London were taking uteri from murdered women..5? ALL common sense points toa serial killer and not just for the torso murders but for the ripper murders too

And yes that stood out to me about Liz being the ex auntie of a policeman. Eddowes did just come from police custody and basically no one interacts with prostitutrs more than the police..

[Michael W Richards]

And the torso's were all left whom? You have body parts appearing in the thames, the embankment, one below a railway arch on pinchin and one in the vault of new Scotland Yard. Didn't the medical examiners state they were done by the same hand? How many individuals in London were taking uteri from murdered women..5? ALL common sense points toa serial killer and not just for the torso murders but for the ripper murders too

And yes that stood out to me about Liz being the ex auntie of a policeman. Eddowes did just come from police custody and basically no one interacts with prostitutrs more than the police..

I would think that the opposite is true Rocky, that the Torsos....which first began showing up prior to 1888, were done by someone committed to those kinds of acts...obviously done indoors... and the murders within the Whitechapel unsolved file were committed by a variety of miscreants and at least 1 serial killer.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

I would think that the opposite is true Rocky, that the Torsos....which first began showing up prior to 1888, were done by someone committed to those kinds of acts...obviously done indoors... and the murders within the Whitechapel unsolved file were committed by a variety of miscreants and at least 1 serial killer.

Cheers

How do you explain them both taking the uterus from victims? Also something I keep pointing out...the whitehall torso had pieces of the aug 24 newspaper. The date the Tabram inquest conclusion was printed. MK shows the ripper was most comfortable working indoors

[Abby Normal]

How do you explain them both taking the uterus from victims? Also something I keep pointing out...the whitehall torso had pieces of the aug 24 newspaper. The date the Tabram inquest conclusion was printed. MK shows the ripper was most comfortable working indoors

Hi rocky
do you think the torso and ripper killings were done by the same man?

I lean towards no, but keep an open mind. After all the torsos all had abdominal mutilations.

My thought is that if they were from the same killer, then the torsos were done at times when he could bring them home, and the dismemberment was done for ease in removal, and the ripper killings were done when he couldn't bring them home, and had to kill in the streets.

[RockySullivan]

Hi rocky
do you think the torso and ripper killings were done by the same man?

I lean towards no, but keep an open mind. After all the torsos all had abdominal mutilations.

My thought is that if they were from the same killer, then the torsos were done at times when he could bring them home, and the dismemberment was done for ease in removal, and the ripper killings were done when he couldn't bring them home, and had to kill in the streets.

Hi Abby, I say they are the same. I wonder if the rippers MO developed as a way of avoiding the disposal process. If you read the pinchin inquest the PC who found the torso encounter a man minutes later with a broom over his shoulder who says "what's up governor" the pc sends the man to fetch another cop and I don't see him mentioned again. There were no wheelbarrows or costermonger carts seen in the vicinity before the dump and I can't help but wonder about this man with the broom.

[Hannibal Hayes]

I do agree that we would have seen much worse destruction and mutilation with previous victims had they occurred indoors.

I think the answer as to why not always indoors might be quite simple. The Ripper was an opportunist who preyed upon the lowest class of prostitutes. These women rarely had their own private lodgings to take a client. They were easy targets and he wasn't going to wait around for a more ideal location.

Whether or not Jack started to seek out a victim that would allow him execute his fantasies further, or just got "lucky" with MJK is yet another question.

From a noise perspective, if you’re indoors, there is less chance of anyone hearing you.

If you’re in a courtyard & need to rip/tear at clothing to get to her body, you will make quite a lot of noise in the still of the night & also have to keep one ear open for other people approaching.

I assume it was eerily quiet during the night, as it is mainly nowadays so why didn’t anyone hear much? It’s not as if they had double glazing to shut out the outside noise.

If you’re in Millers Court, you have the crackle of the fire to disguise the tears/rips & can also remove them without cutting once the victim is incapacitated.

[Rosella]

With Polly Nichols there were freight trains going past on a regular basis. I suppose people who lived nearby got used to it, but steam trains rattling and whistling would have been incredibly noisy. (A whistle would also drown any scream.)

[Michael W Richards]

With Polly Nichols there were freight trains going past on a regular basis. I suppose people who lived nearby got used to it, but steam trains rattling and whistling would have been incredibly noisy. (A whistle would also drown any scream.)

I think that the main issue was the open ended street. I believe its why he chose a setting that would necessitate a backyard venue the next time out...he didn't get to do all he wanted to in Bucks Row.

Cheers