Why not always indoors?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I am afraid that only the killer could answer that question and all that we can do is hazard a guess. Off the top of my head I would say that he might have felt confident that if disturbed he could flee and outrun any pursuit something he could not do indoors. As to abandoned warehouses and homes, I would think that prostitutes would be rather reluctant to enter an abandoned location when they knew that a killer was on the loose. Also, there were probably rats and God knows what else inhabiting those buildings. I can't imagine that the women would feel at all comfortable going into one.

But let me turn the question around, why didn't all the non-Jack killers you envision choose abandoned buildings rather than kill on the street?

c.d.

He could flee in a street open at both ends? Or in a backyard with only a single hallway access through a house to the street? Or in a square that has 2 of 3 possible exits regularly patrolled by coppers?

To the last point cd...I think all the women were killed where they were because that's where their killer found them, and in the case of the ones killed outdoors in public, they were killed there either because of uncontrolled fantasies or because that's where their killed found them.

I think Kate may have made a fatal meeting arrangement, and Mary, a fatal decision to let a "friend" into her room. Liz I believe had motivations for being where she was that may well be work, social activity or even spying.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

I see now. You are just putting the first two together because you theorize that they were the only common victims. That's fine, but steps around the question completely, and has nothing to do with my answer. Your agenda really doesn't belong here with the simple question asked. Privacy has more to do with the question than a matter of doss money. Who had private rooms? Only Kelly.

Mike

First off there is no agenda, just an intolerance for fantasy, and second of all I should have clarified as you did....private room, not just a room in her own name.

And for the record the only 2 victims that match in MO, Victimology, and abdominal focus for PM mutilations are the first 2. Its folks like you who just toss the next 3 on the same pile,..all the while having to reconstruct the MO, the Victimology and the PM focus to make it fit your theorizing.

For me and some others, if its unlike, its unlikely the same...but that doesn't allow for a metamorphisizing, ever changing monster like many want to believe in.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

That's a good case for street prostitutes who were homeless without doss....and that's the crux of my previous points....only 2 of the Canonical Five can be categorized as such based on the existing evidence. We have no idea why Liz was where she was, or Kate, and we can see Mary wasn't outside when she was attacked. Polly and Annie admitted to friends that they were trying to earn their doss.

I see now. You are just putting the first two together because you theorize that they were the only common victims. That's fine, but steps around the question completely, and has nothing to do with my answer. Your agenda really doesn't belong here with the simple question asked. Privacy has more to do with the question than a matter of doss money. Who had private rooms? Only Kelly.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Eddowes didn't have her own room, and Stride lived with a man (Kidney), so they have to be included when answering the question of the OP, if you are talking about canonicals. Again, why not always indoors? Answer: Because they had no private room to take their clients to.

Mike

That's a good case for street prostitutes who were homeless without doss....and that's the crux of my previous points....only 2 of the Canonical Five can be categorized as such based on the existing evidence. We have no idea why Liz was where she was, or Kate, and we can see Mary wasn't outside when she was attacked. Polly and Annie admitted to friends that they were trying to earn their doss.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Excuse me for asking Michael, but how can we know this today?

I cant give you a source at this moment Jon, but I believe with a bit of time I can substantiate the claim that females whose primary source of income was prostitution as we must believe Marys was, could not rent rooms by the week in their own name, let alone run arrears while there.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

Because the only women within the Canonical Group that did not have homes the night they were killed...based on what is known...are Polly and Annie. We don't know if Liz had made other arrangements, had a night cleaning job or a new lover, we don't know why Kate went in the opposite direction of her home, and Mary had a room.

Eddowes didn't have her own room, and Stride lived with a man (Kidney), so they have to be included when answering the question of the OP, if you are talking about canonicals. Again, why not always indoors? Answer: Because they had no private room to take their clients to.

Mike

[Rosella]

If Jack was an opportunist as a killer why would he ask prostitutes he met if they had a room where they could go? Would he walk off if they said they had no private room?

Surely, his main priority would be somewhere dark and reasonably isolated, whether he led them there or vice-versa? I just think he got lucky with Mary Jane Kelly having private quarters. Otherwise, I don't think he was bothered.

[Wickerman]

Prostitutes with a room rented in their own name during this period was a rare thing.

Cheers

Excuse me for asking Michael, but how can we know this today?

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I am afraid that only the killer could answer that question and all that we can do is hazard a guess. Off the top of my head I would say that he might have felt confident that if disturbed he could flee and outrun any pursuit something he could not do indoors. As to abandoned warehouses and homes, I would think that prostitutes would be rather reluctant to enter an abandoned location when they knew that a killer was on the loose. Also, there were probably rats and God knows what else inhabiting those buildings. I can't imagine that the women would feel at all comfortable going into one.

But let me turn the question around, why didn't all the non-Jack killers you envision choose abandoned buildings rather than kill on the street?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

So....many folks think that their assumptions provide all the necessary information with which to conclude that one killer killed the Canonical Group...despite the contrary physical evidence of course.

Ok....so then just answer the thread question...if this Jack fellow who many imagine in various forms was intent on killing women randomly, mutilating the corpses then absconding with any old organ from the victim...then why wouldn't he kill indoors every time? To ensure he had the time and the privacy to reach these imagined lofty goals.

I don't believe anyone thinks the Torsos were made outdoors, so.. that killer likely killed indoors for that privacy and the heightened chance that he could accomplish his objectives without being disturbed or caught.

He got anstsy and couldn't wait for the opportunity? Ok...and where is that evidence? He picked spots where he thought he would have time?....well, that's not applicable in Kates and Liz Strides murder. Nor in Pollys.

You ask people like me to accept a premise that a uncontrolled killer killed differently 4 times and had an objective to mutilate that morphed along the way, ...so explain why he wouldn't have preferred to use indoor venues...that were widely available in the form of abandoned warehouse and homes in the area. Just look at Mitre Square....plenty of indoor spaces to work with no occupants to bother him....so, why did he kill her in the open where policemen walked through at least 4 times an hour.?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

A quick quiz -- which of these five things is different from the rest? Uterus, kidney, heart, bladder, pencil.

If you said pencil, you are correct. The others are ALL ORGANS.

c.d.

If you imagine that the killer simply sought any organ at all, then I see your point. The evidence in the first 2 murders however seems to indicate that abdominal organs were specifically sought. In that context the heart, a pencil and a kidney do not fit.

And if you do still imagine he wanted any old organ, all you need to do is explain Liz Stride on her side with her skirt down and zero pm wounds. Without imagining a scenario that isn't supported by ANY hard evidence of course.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

I don't think there was a shortage. There where just many more without. Ada Wilson had a room for example. So did Mary Cox in Miller's Court.

Prostitutes with a room rented in their own name during this period was a rare thing.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

What does this have to do with the question re: Why not always indoors? I say that these poor prostitutes, and I didn't mention anyone in particular, didn't take men indoors because they didn't have their own room or house to take them to. So how does your cryptic response fit with my answer?

Mike

Because the only women within the Canonical Group that did not have homes the night they were killed...based on what is known...are Polly and Annie. We don't know if Liz had made other arrangements, had a night cleaning job or a new lover, we don't know why Kate went in the opposite direction of her home, and Mary had a room.

Its obvious that one of the key factors in the choice of Polly and Annie was their vulnerability. We have no such evidence any of the others would have had nowhere to go the night(s) they were killed.

I raise the issue because its almost certainly part of the Victimology profile for the man who killed the first 2 women.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

You're right, Michael. There was no shortage of unsavoury types with a potential for violence living in the East End around the time of the Ripper. However, of all the Whitechapel murders, only a handful of the victims involved abdominal mutilations and the evisceration of organs. If Stride had been slashed on another night, then maybe she wouldn't have been accepted into the canon, the salient point of course being that she was killed less than hour before a Ripper-esque murder. I've no problem with people ruling Stride out, coincidences can and do indeed happen. However, the evidence and timing of the murder has more to link it to a unfinished Ripper job than not, in my unprofessional opinion. As for the other murders in the Whitechapel files, they were quite rightly not attributed to the Ripper because none of them portrayed the same degree of sado-sexual violence that we saw from C1 to C5, with the possible exception of Alice Mackenzie, but she has the timing against her (would the killer cool-off for eight months?) and the de-escalation, although this could be another interruption. At any rate, I'd throw Mackenzie on the 'maybe' pile.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find it extraordinary that you're nitpicking over what organs the killer(s) took, rather than the fact they were taken in the first place! Different organs mean different killers? Perhaps the killer fancied a slightly different trophy as the murders progressed? I'll repeat, no argument there were plenty of wrong'uns on the streets capable of murdering women, but how many of them were willing and able to disembowel them on the street, and how come they all happened to come crawling out of the woodwork a few weeks within each other? Why invent a multi-killer theory when you don't need to? Occam has a razor you can borrow.

There is reason to nitpick Harry, when the first 2 canonicals, and ONLY the first 2 Canonicals, had their pm mutilations confined to the abdomen, and the fact that a uterus was taken at all could well point to a misogynist killer or someone with issues concerning female reproduction.

Now...only 3 Canonicals were in fact disembowelled, and only 2 of them in the street Harry, and again, the inconsistency isn't explained within the known evidence, its explained by people who believe the five victims shared a single killer and that modern serial killer research is of value here.

I can say without any hesitation that Jack the Ripper posed a threat to women alone without a home, for sure, but he was hardly the only one capable of killing women.

You mention Strides murder as potentially unfinished, like most Canonical believers bring up, the problem however is that without a single shred of evidence that points to that scenario and with the physical disposition of the body,.. on her side, untouched after a single cut, there are no grounds to entertain that idea.

Cheers Harry

[The Good Michael]

Hi Mike,

If someone were stupid enough to swallow a pencil he'd just become a 'Lead Beat'

I can't even groan at this one....I'm just going to erase it from my memory.

Mike