Did Poison Play A Role In The Murders?

[GUT]

Another thing to remember is that people view the whole JtR issue differently

Some want to solve it lke a criminal case

Some enjoy the historical side

Some want to sole it on a historical level

Some are interested in the LVP

Some are interested in the people

Some enjoy the cut and thrust of debate

Some enjoy the mental stimulus

I'm sure I've missed a multitude of other reasons

Of course most are a mixture of reasons.

[RockySullivan]

Do the cachous being wrapped in tissue paper mean they were bought from a a street vendor or were candies usually sold in tissue paper and not tins? I still think cachous point to pipeman since they are after smoking mints

[Rosella]

I've never read any references to sweets in England being sold in tissue paper, except perhaps little ones wrapped in the middle of Christmas tree decorations. Sometimes certain boiled sweets were sold in a twist of white paper. When I was a child very thin small white paper bags were used to hold sweets and I'm wondering whether a torn white bag was described as 'tissue' in Stride's case.

Tobacconist shops in the early 20th century often had jars of sweets displayed behind the counter. Don't know whether it would be so in the 1880's though. Street vendors sold lots of food items, so the cachous could have been bought from them.

[RockySullivan]

I've never read any references to sweets in England being sold in tissue paper, except perhaps little ones wrapped in the middle of Christmas tree decorations. Sometimes certain boiled sweets were sold in a twist of white paper. When I was a child very thin small white paper bags were used to hold sweets and I'm wondering whether a torn white bag was described as 'tissue' in Stride's case.

Tobacconist shops in the early 20th century often had jars of sweets displayed behind the counter. Don't know whether it would be so in the 1880's though. Street vendors sold lots of food items, so the cachous could have been bought from them.

Thanks Rosella, another reason to suspect the cachous were from Pipeman.

[Penhalion]

Actually, aconite CAN induce vomiting. Although I don't think any poison was used by JtR, it is still interesting to examine and eliminate it as a possibility.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19514874

CLINICAL FEATURES:

Patients present predominantly with a combination of neurological, cardiovascular, and gastrointestinal features. The neurological features can be sensory (paresthesia and numbness of face, perioral area, and the four limbs), motor (muscle weakness in the four limbs), or both. The cardiovascular features include hypotension, chest pain, palpitations, bradycardia, sinus tachycardia, ventricular ectopics, ventricular tachycardia, and ventricular fibrillation. The gastrointestinal features include nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea. The main causes of death are refractory ventricular arrhythmias and asystole and the overall in-hospital mortality is 5.5%

[Natasha]

Do the cachous being wrapped in tissue paper mean they were bought from a a street vendor or were candies usually sold in tissue paper and not tins? I still think cachous point to pipeman since they are after smoking mints

Hi Rocky

Judging by what Blackwell said: a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper

I would take that to mean that the packet that contained the sweets was wrapped in tissue paper.

Perhaps the packet contained the tissue paper, and that she may have taken it out to get to the sweets without replacing it.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky

Judging by what Blackwell said: a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper

I would take that to mean that the packet that contained the sweets was wrapped in tissue paper.

Perhaps the packet contained the tissue paper, and that she may have taken it out to get to the sweets without replacing it.

Hm I imagined that when someone wanted to buy a small amount of cachous they'd come wrapped up in tissue paper. This suggest they were bought recently. I really do think there is a connection between pipeman and the cachous.

[Natasha]

Actually, aconite CAN induce vomiting. Although I don't think any poison was used by JtR, it is still interesting to examine and eliminate it as a possibility.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19514874

CLINICAL FEATURES:

Patients present predominantly with a combination of neurological, cardiovascular, and gastrointestinal features. The neurological features can be sensory (paresthesia and numbness of face, perioral area, and the four limbs), motor (muscle weakness in the four limbs), or both. The cardiovascular features include hypotension, chest pain, palpitations, bradycardia, sinus tachycardia, ventricular ectopics, ventricular tachycardia, and ventricular fibrillation. The gastrointestinal features include nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea. The main causes of death are refractory ventricular arrhythmias and asystole and the overall in-hospital mortality is 5.5%

Hi Penhalion

Thanks

I was reading up on Aconitum Anglicum, and it didn't mention sickness, just that the poison works by targeting the cardiovascular and central nervous system, and gastrointestinal tract, but there was no mention of sickness.

Where else on the same page it contained other poisons and their side effects listing vomiting as an effect of which ever poison is was pertaining to. So I just assumed it didn't induce vomiting.

[Natasha]

Hm I imagined that when someone wanted to buy a small amount of cachous they'd come wrapped up in tissue paper. This suggest they were bought recently. I really do think there is a connection between pipeman and the cachous.

Hi Rocky

I would have thought cachous would have been expensive especially as cachous is a branded item. So it would make sense that that they were bought/given for/to her.

If they didn't have a package, would they be described as cachous or plain old liquorice?

Pipeman and cachous: seems a sensible conclusion.

[RockySullivan]

I was reading about dr Harley crippen...it appears he used scopolamine on his dismembered victims. So maybe it is a possibility

Dr crippen Wiki:
Their disappearance led the police at Scotland Yard to perform another three searches of the house. During the fourth and final search, they found the remains of a human body, buried under the brick floor of the basement. Sir Bernard Spilsbury found traces of the calming drug scopolamine. The corpse was identified by a piece of skin from its abdomen; the head, limbs, and skeleton were never recovered.

[curious]

Hi Rocky

Judging by what Blackwell said: a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper

I would take that to mean that the packet that contained the sweets was wrapped in tissue paper.

Perhaps the packet contained the tissue paper, and that she may have taken it out to get to the sweets without replacing it.

Thanks, this discussion makes me see the cachous POSSIBLY very differently.

I had originally envisioned a few breath mints wrapped in tissue paper as a way to keep them together and clean.

When tissue paper is used today as wrapping paper, it is often in various colors for gift wrapping.

This is the first time I've considered the packet, or pack, might have been wrapped and presented as a little gift for her . . . .

interesting. Actually, that makes it especially interesting as it would suggest the giver took some trouble with it, and it was not a purchase while she was out walking around with some guy and she wanted a pack of breath mints . . .

Very complicated. Is that too complicated?

curious

[Ausgirl]

I was reading about dr Harley crippen...it appears he used scopolamine on his dismembered victims. So maybe it is a possibility

Dr crippen Wiki:
Their disappearance led the police at Scotland Yard to perform another three searches of the house. During the fourth and final search, they found the remains of a human body, buried under the brick floor of the basement. Sir Bernard Spilsbury found traces of the calming drug scopolamine. The corpse was identified by a piece of skin from its abdomen; the head, limbs, and skeleton were never recovered.

Crippen's MO was vastly different to JtR's though - while Crippen's crime was very typical of prisoners in its being focussed indoors, JtR hunted in the open and his attacks were far more violent and blitz-style.

[RockySullivan]

Crippen's MO was vastly different to JtR's though - while Crippen's crime was very typical of prisoners in its being focussed indoors, JtR hunted in the open and his attacks were far more violent and blitz-style.

I was reading about crippen since I think there was a dismembered victim under his floor. I wasn't suggesting him as the ripper, just that scopolamine may have been available

[Natasha]

I was reading about dr Harley crippen...it appears he used scopolamine on his dismembered victims. So maybe it is a possibility

Dr crippen Wiki:
Their disappearance led the police at Scotland Yard to perform another three searches of the house. During the fourth and final search, they found the remains of a human body, buried under the brick floor of the basement. Sir Bernard Spilsbury found traces of the calming drug scopolamine. The corpse was identified by a piece of skin from its abdomen; the head, limbs, and skeleton were never recovered.

Hi Rocky

I watched a programme about Crippen ages ago, and there was suggestion that Crippnen was innocent and that the body may not have been Cora. Anyway I digress, could it be possible that the scopolamine was used as self medication in that case?

I just feel that if the coroners were looking for use of poison in the ripper case, they would have discovered the scopolamine.

[Natasha]

Thanks, this discussion makes me see the cachous POSSIBLY very differently.

I had originally envisioned a few breath mints wrapped in tissue paper as a way to keep them together and clean.

When tissue paper is used today as wrapping paper, it is often in various colors for gift wrapping.

This is the first time I've considered the packet, or pack, might have been wrapped and presented as a little gift for her . . . .

interesting. Actually, that makes it especially interesting as it would suggest the giver took some trouble with it, and it was not a purchase while she was out walking around with some guy and she wanted a pack of breath mints . . .

Very complicated. Is that too complicated?

curious

Hi Curious

Excellent suggestion!

Of course, that makes perfect sense

Here is where it gets a little complicated:
Blackwell: "The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger"

Now judging by that, it seems to me an awkward way to hold and keep hold of something unless the item was retrieved from a small pocket. I do think that the killer was the one who gave her the cachous.