Did Poison Play A Role In The Murders?

[RockySullivan]

The best bet would be a tropane alkaloid which does cuz intense urine retention. It's a possibility but un likely

[Errata]

Everything about poison or drugs is problematic. Chloroform had merit because it is a fairly mild inhalant, and would not leave telltale blisters,rash, redness etc. on the face. But there was no chloroform.

On the other hand, no needle marks were mentioned. But was that due to the fact that no injections were made, or that they did not look for needle marks, or that they would be tough to find given the wear and tear of these women? And to know that we would have to either know the procedure for post mortem examination, or we would need to find autopsies where needle marks were fond and were duly listed among the abnormalities found on the body.

[Wickerman]

Everything about poison or drugs is problematic. Chloroform had merit because it is a fairly mild inhalant, and would not leave telltale blisters,rash, redness etc. on the face. But there was no chloroform.

I recall someone suggesting that chloroform may leave burn marks around the mouth if applied to a cloth and held in place for too long.

In what way do you mean there was no chloroform?

[Errata]

I recall someone suggesting that chloroform may leave burn marks around the mouth if applied to a cloth and held in place for too long.

In what way do you mean there was no chloroform?

It can, but it is general an irritant so the skin usually gets red.

Chloroform wasn't used. The smell lingers for hours, and it's unmistakable.

[Wickerman]

Ah, you mean it was not used in the murders, not that it was not available for use.

[Errata]

Ah, you mean it was not used in the murders, not that it was not available for use.

Correct.

[Natasha]

Hi All,

I find it a little unusual that there was no mention of pills in the contents of Chapman's stomach, seeing as she was found with the pills.

It would be interesting to find out exactly what the pills were.

There is no record of her going to the infirmary. So where did she get the pills? If she went to the infirmary would they not make a note of her having attended, and being given the medication?

[Natasha]

Fair enough. I'm interested in suggestions of how this killer got his victims to lie down without a scream. The only way I see at the moment is by strangulation, but by all means the floor is open to other alternatives.

Hi Jon,

Perhaps they were attacked from behind.

Here's another thing that's been nagging me, how were the victims (barring Chapman) so intoxicated with drink? I'm assuming that most of the pubs watered down the drinks. These women had no money. They were either old, ill, not the type of women who could make a fortune and I doubt they got alot of customers. It would take a fair amount of drink to get them drunk.
That is why I'm thinking there was more than alcohol involved.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Perhaps they were attacked from behind.

I'm sure they were, but I think he was walking with them at the time.

Here's another thing that's been nagging me, how were the victims (barring Chapman) so intoxicated with drink? I'm assuming that most of the pubs watered down the drinks. These women had no money. They were either old, ill, not the type of women who could make a fortune and I doubt they got alot of customers. It would take a fair amount of drink to get them drunk.
That is why I'm thinking there was more than alcohol involved.

Each case would have to be looked at separately. The pubs were closed long before Nichols was attacked, though she was deemed drunk one hour before her murder.
Likewise the pubs were shut long before Chapman was murdered.
Stride had been in the Bricklayers Arms around two hours before her murder. Eddowes had no drink after about 8:30 pm Sat. night, and Kelly was slurred of speech at 12:45 pm, but we cant be sure of the hour of her death.

I'm not sure there is sufficient evidence to say how drunk any of them were at the hour of their deaths.

[Natasha]

Fair enough. I'm interested in suggestions of how this killer got his victims to lie down without a scream. The only way I see at the moment is by strangulation, but by all means the floor is open to other alternatives.

Hi Jon

I was looking at other similar cases to the ripper murders, and found the following statement from a witness (this murder took place in 1894, and has not officially been connected to the ripper murders) in a newspaper article that may be of interest:

The assassin then raised his knee, and with force embedded his knee in the woman's stomach, at the same time cutting her throat.

[Wickerman]

Hi Natasha.

Hi Jon

I was looking at other similar cases to the ripper murders, and found the following statement from a witness (this murder took place in 1894, and has not officially been connected to the ripper murders) in a newspaper article that may be of interest:

The assassin then raised his knee, and with force embedded his knee in the woman's stomach, at the same time cutting her throat.

Not concerned about getting blood on his clothes then...

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha.


Not concerned about getting blood on his clothes then...

Hi Jon

I'm in the habit of changing my mind now and then

I guess if he was wearing dark clothes it wouldn't matter too much to him if he did get blood on his clothes.

[Rosella]

People were always cutting throats in the 19th century, if not with knives then with cut throat razors.
It seems to have been a common form of suicide, as well as murder.

[GUT]

People were always cutting throats in the 19th century, if not with knives then with cut throat razors.
It seems to have been a common form of suicide, as well as murder.

Together with poisoning, but if you think about it probably the two most available weapons to the "Common Man".

[Batman]

Poison does have explanatory power when it comes to JtR. In fact it resolves a lot of issues so its why it should be taken seriously, especially considering the modern evidence that points to medical experience.

While all people must eat, many of JtRs victims had recently eaten. MJK had fish and potatoes. H0utchenson describes a man carrying a parcel. Fish supper?

Eddowes had partly digested farinaceous food inside her.

Stride clutching her sweets. Who knows, maybe Stride wasn't being attacked but instead was in the thrawls of a collapse.

Chapman had farinaceous powder in her food.

While it can be hard to explain away an amputation knife on you, it doesn't look as suspect in with other cutlery for food... well better than on its own anyway I would think.

Poison also gives an explanation for the mutilation. Since someone with medical knowledge would know it possible to detect poisons, it makes it harder back then if organs are missing or cut to shreds. Deflecting the medical interpretation.

Now why would someone go out killing prostitutes with poison, then do this? We can't say that the signature of the murderer is not sexual. It is. It's just warped. I think many people like myself might have speculated that Chapman was on a practice mission to find out how long it takes for his poison of choice to work for a future plan.

Timing is a problem... yet again it isn't like JtR was pefect. He wasn't. Far from it. He was very lucky and made many mistakes... just not enough to get caught.

Chapman used tartar-emetic.