Did Poison Play A Role In The Murders?

[Natasha]

Hi All

I thought perhaps it would be interesting to look at what possible poisons may have played a role in the murders.

1: Monkshood, Wolfsbane: Aconitum Napellus. The only post-mortem signs are those of asphyxia. Poisoning can occur even after touching the leaves of the plant without wearing gloves as it is very rapidly and easily absorbed.

2: Atropa belladonna, Deadly Nightshade.

3: Hemlock, Conium Maculatum.

I would like to point out that Eddowes had 3/4 ounces of urine in her bladder, roughly about 113 mls if we go with 4 ounces. She may have had brights disease, but her organs were quite healthy, save for slight congestion of kidney. If her brights disease was under control and inflammation was reduced, then the output of urine would increase. The bladder was healthy and there was no mention of dark coloured urine. How much urine is usually present post mortem?
I assume that most dead people expel urine because of the loss of muscle control. They do not always retain it, unless they are intoxicated. Is that true?

[Errata]

Hi All

I thought perhaps it would be interesting to look at what possible poisons may have played a role in the murders.

1: Monkshood, Wolfsbane: Aconitum Napellus. The only post-mortem signs are those of asphyxia. Poisoning can occur even after touching the leaves of the plant without wearing gloves as it is very rapidly and easily absorbed.

2: Atropa belladonna, Deadly Nightshade.

3: Hemlock, Conium Maculatum.

I would like to point out that Eddowes had 3/4 ounces of urine in her bladder, roughly about 113 mls if we go with 4 ounces. She may have had brights disease, but her organs were quite healthy, save for slight congestion of kidney. If her brights disease was under control and inflammation was reduced, then the output of urine would increase. The bladder was healthy and there was no mention of dark coloured urine. How much urine is usually present post mortem?
I assume that most dead people expel urine because of the loss of muscle control. They do not always retain it, unless they are intoxicated. Is that true?

The problem with poison is the variability of absorption rate and fatal dosage. Yeah, aconite will drop a horse, but in this case we need the horse to drop in a specific location within a small time frame. If the poison hits while the Ripper and his victim are still looking for a place to go, that's bad. If he has to try and get her to stick around for twenty minutes not doing anything until the poison sets it, that's also not good. There are very few poisons that kill instantly or near instantly. There are also very few plant based poisons that do not cause the body to try and vomit up it's own innards. And then there are the symptoms leading up to death, where the victim realizes something is terribly wrong. It's dicey.

[lynn cates]

delay

Hello Errata.

"If he has to try and get her to stick around for twenty minutes not doing anything until the poison sets it, that's also not good."

Well, he could get her to warble a few strains of Irish folk music? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

The problem with poison is the variability of absorption rate and fatal dosage. Yeah, aconite will drop a horse, but in this case we need the horse to drop in a specific location within a small time frame. If the poison hits while the Ripper and his victim are still looking for a place to go, that's bad. If he has to try and get her to stick around for twenty minutes not doing anything until the poison sets it, that's also not good. There are very few poisons that kill instantly or near instantly. There are also very few plant based poisons that do not cause the body to try and vomit up it's own innards. And then there are the symptoms leading up to death, where the victim realizes something is terribly wrong. It's dicey.

Hi Errata

You make a very good point. I did think that perhaps the absorption rate would take at least an hour to work. Then I thought what if the ripper had drugged his victim whilst they were drinking? Then perhaps he would wait, follow then kill. Of course he would need to know alot about poisons.

The sickness part: what about Kelly? If we believe that Maxwell saw her being sick and she was indeed killed in the day, would the need for poison be valid? I think that if the poison was used, it would keep her from crying out.

[Penhalion]

Wouldn't the quantity of poison be a problem? Most plant based poisons take a fair amount to do their jobs (I grow monkshood in my garden and skin contact mostly just causes irritation, not death....unless I'm a ghost!!!). Even if you could slip some into their gin, you'd probably have to dose her several times and each time risks being noticed.

Also, as noted, the body will generally try to get rid of the offending substance and MJK is the only victim who has any sort of report about vomiting (which I do not accept as a proven fact) and there was no sign of vomitus on any of the others. Even poor Kate Eddowes, so drunk she couldn't walk, wasn't reported as vomiting.

[Wickerman]

Hi All

I thought perhaps it would be interesting to look at what possible poisons may have played a role in the murders.

Hi Natasha.
I'm sure you know that part of the autopsy procedure is to remove the stomach in order to test for poisons, drink, drugs and the like.

[Natasha]

Hi Penhalion,

Wouldn't the quantity of poison be a problem? Most plant based poisons take a fair amount to do their jobs (I grow monkshood in my garden and skin contact mostly just causes irritation, not death....unless I'm a ghost!!!). Even if you could slip some into their gin, you'd probably have to dose her several times and each time risks being noticed.

I wasn't saying that touching it alone can cause death, just that there are unofficial cases where people have felt ill after touching the plant.

The following is interesting:

The superstitious called it wolfsbane, leopard's bane, women's bane, Devil's helmet, blue rocket. The Greeks hailed it as the Queen of Poisons, created from the saliva of three-headed Cerberus, mythical guardian of the underworld. And until the 20th century, it was the deadliest toxin known to man.

The name aconite is derived from the garden plant monkshood, Aconitum anglicum, whose leaves and root yield its active ingredient, a potent alkaloid called aconitine, which was frequently used to poison the tips of hunting darts or javelins. Until its toxic properties were discovered, tincture or liniment of aconite was used to relieve sciatica, neuralgia and rheumatism, for the heat-production and mild anesthetic properties of the potion gave comfort to many an aching joint. However, its popularity took a plunge when it was discovered that the mere rubbing of preparations on skin produced symptoms like poisoning by ingestion, and thereafter was sought primarily by those who had more sinister uses for the plant. The author Nicander of Colophon (fl 130 BC) said of aconite toxicity:

It is established that of all poisons the quickest to act is aconite, and that death occurs on the same day if the genitals of a female creature are but touched by it.

In solid form, aconite is a white powder with no definite crystalline structure, which will only dissolve in alcohol and weak acid. One-fiftieth of a grain is deadly; at one-tenth of a grain, it will stop anything living. Even a weak thousand-fold dilution produces discomfiting tingling sensations where it is applied.

The poison works by targeting the cardiovascular and central nervous system, and gastrointestinal tract. The aconite alkaloids modify the cell membrane to sodium and potassium ions, inhibiting repolarisation, activate the sodium channel, and affect the excitable membranes of cardiac, neural and muscular tissue.

The poison takes effect quickly. The victim will experience numbness and tingling in the mouth and throat within minutes of consuming the poison, both of which will feel parched. If the dose is large, it produces a severe burning sensation from throat to abdomen. The tingling feeling soon spreads to the hands and feet, and subsequently the whole body; the skin and extremities cold and clammy to the touch; yet at the same time the victim will feel as though his limbs are being flayed. This is followed by a loss of power in the legs and the dulling of sight and hearing, although the victim will be clear-headed until death comes. Muscular twitching may result in convulsions, the pulse will weaken and pupils dilate, and the slightest exertion brings a fatal syncope. Acotine will poison all organs in turn, but death is usually from failure of the respiratory system – between eight minutes and four hours after the symptoms begin.

Also, as noted, the body will generally try to get rid of the offending substance and MJK is the only victim who has any sort of report about vomiting (which I do not accept as a proven fact) and there was no sign of vomitus on any of the others. Even poor Kate Eddowes, so drunk she couldn't walk, wasn't reported as vomiting.

Wolfsbane does not cause sickness.

I would like to point out that when I ask weather poison had a role to play, I was talking in the sense of aiding the killer with committing the murders. Not that the poison was used to kill the victims.

[Ginger]

I assume that most dead people expel urine because of the loss of muscle control. They do not always retain it, unless they are intoxicated. Is that true?

I don't know for a fact, but I strongly suspect that posture would play a role there. If she were on her back when she was killed, then I think it would be less likely for her bladder to empty.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha.
I'm sure you know that part of the autopsy procedure is to remove the stomach in order to test for poisons, drink, drugs and the like.

Hi Jon

I am aware of this, but ingestion is not the only way to administer poison.

Also, Aconite leaves only one post-mortem sign, that of asphyxia, as it causes arrhythmic heart function which leads to suffocation.

[Natasha]

I don't know for a fact, but I strongly suspect that posture would play a role there. If she were on her back when she was killed, then I think it would be less likely for her bladder to empty.

Hi Ginger

Posture. I didn't think about that.
What about if she was panicking after seeing the knife etc, would she not wee herself because she was frightened?

[Ginger]

What about if she was panicking after seeing the knife etc, would she not wee herself because she was frightened?

I very much doubt that any of them saw the knife.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I am aware of this, but ingestion is not the only way to administer poison.

Also, Aconite leaves only one post-mortem sign, that of asphyxia, as it causes arrhythmic heart function which leads to suffocation.

Fair enough. I'm interested in suggestions of how this killer got his victims to lie down without a scream. The only way I see at the moment is by strangulation, but by all means the floor is open to other alternatives.

[Damaso Marte]

We don't know how Catherine Eddowes was subdued. There is no clue in the physical evidence about this. Nichols and Chapman were clearly strangled.

I think there are simpler explanations than poison. For Eddowes, simpler explanations include that she was strangled without leaving a trace (possible), or that she simply fainted, perhaps as the killer reached for her throat and she realized who he was and what was about to happen.

[Wickerman]

We don't know how Catherine Eddowes was subdued. There is no clue in the physical evidence about this. Nichols and Chapman were clearly strangled.

I think there are simpler explanations than poison. For Eddowes, simpler explanations include that she was strangled without leaving a trace (possible), or that she simply fainted, perhaps as the killer reached for her throat and she realized who he was and what was about to happen.

Over on Howards forum we have been talking about the Mylett case, and at one of the inquest sessions we read that marks are not always left after a garrotting.

"Dr. Bond stated that if this was a case of strangulation he should have expected to find the skin broken, but it was clearly shown, on reference being made to the records of the Indian doctors in the cases of the Thug murders, that there were no marks whatever left. Other eminent authorities agreed with that view."
Times, 10 Jan. 1889.

[Errata]

I don't know for a fact, but I strongly suspect that posture would play a role there. If she were on her back when she was killed, then I think it would be less likely for her bladder to empty.

Relieving one's self is act of clenching muscles, not relaxing them. The only time people piss themselves right before death is the same reason they do it out of fear or panic. Which is because they had a fairly good sized global muscle flex due to fight or flight. Not everyone does it. But those that do tend to die in fear and pain.