Sent to an asylum?

[gnote]

One conventional reason it’s believed the Ripper murders stopped is the perpetrator was locked away. There have been numerous serial killers in history who were arrested and then in the aftermath determined to be of unsound mind. Therefore they were sent to a mental facility as an alternative to prison. In the cases I’ve come across these individuals were always first apprehended by the police. The point being the offender was determined criminally insane only after they were in custody.

Are there any examples of persons sent to an asylum for the long term only for it to be discovered later they were what we would today describe as a serial killer?

[GUT]

One conventional reason it’s believed the Ripper murders stopped is the perpetrator was locked away. There have been numerous serial killers in history who were arrested and then in the aftermath determined to be of unsound mind. Therefore they were sent to a mental facility as an alternative to prison. In the cases I’ve come across these individuals were always first apprehended by the police. The point being the offender was determined criminally insane only after they were in custody.

You can ONLY be declared Criminally insane by a Court, so you have to have been bought before the Court for that to happen.

Indeed "insanity" is a legal concept and not a medical one. To be legally insane you must be shown to have not understood that your actions were wrong.

Are there any examples of persons sent to an asylum for the long term only for it to be discovered later they were what we would today describe as a serial killer?

Not that I've come across, but it would be interesting?

[gnote]

Not that I've come across, but it would be interesting?

I think it would be. Possibly could answer some questions or at the very least shed light on any of the modern suspects who ended up in a similar facility.

[RockySullivan]

My personal opinion is ripper/torso was away from 1873 till the murders started up again. But an asylum? I really don't think the ripper was visibly insane in the way Kozminski was. To be that cunning he'd have to be razor sharp. I think he was possibly away during that time but I think the most likely of all is prison. After the 73 torso he probably he was locked up. And possibly again after the rippings. The main thing that makes me think this is the statement by paul that the spot where Lechmere found the body was known for criminal activity like mugging. The ripper is going to work where he feels comfortable, he probably committed some mugging on that spot and he knew it as a safe spot for crime. That's my free cents.

[gnote]

My personal opinion is ripper/torso was away from 1873 till the murders started up again. But an asylum? I really don't think the ripper was visibly insane in the way Kozminski was. To be that cunning he'd have to be razor sharp. I think he was possibly away during that time but I think the most likely of all is prison. After the 73 torso he probably he was locked up. And possibly again after the rippings. The main thing that makes me think this is the statement by paul that the spot where Lechmere found the body was known for criminal activity like mugging. The ripper is going to work where he feels comfortable, he probably committed some mugging on that spot and he knew it as a safe spot for crime. That's my free cents.

I haven't read enough about the torso killings to form any kind of opinion.

With regards to Kosminiski i think most if not all would agree it could not have been the mumbling idiot version that was sent to Colney Hatch. If he was the Ripper, then of course he would have been in much better control of his faculties in 1888.

Whether one points at Kosminski or Cohen/Kaminky being Jack it would seem they would be a rare example of an individual bypassing arrest for murder and going directly to an asylum. (at least for serial killers)

I'd still like to know if there are any documented examples of this occurring.

[Rosella]

Joseph Vacher, often called the French Jack the Ripper, talked his way out of confinement in a mental asylum where he'd been placed after a suicide attempt. His stay there lasted twelve months. Vacher was later guillotined after murdering and mutilating eleven people.

[gnote]

This section on Vacher from wikipedia stands out as being vaguely Kosminski like: "By most accounts, he appeared unkempt and frightening, wandering from town to town as a vagrant in filthy clothes, begging in the streets and surviving on the scraps he received from anyone who spared him a kindness."

A key difference is Vacher killed in isolated fields as opposed to a crowded city and didn't target only women.

[Rosella]

Yes, but Vacher is an example of what was posted about earlier.
'Are there any examples of persons sent to an asylum for the longterm only for it to be found out later that they were serial killers.'

I wasn't posting that Vacher was similar to JTR.

[robhouse]

With regards to Kosminiski i think most if not all would agree it could not have been the mumbling idiot version that was sent to Colney Hatch. If he was the Ripper, then of course he would have been in much better control of his faculties in 1888.

"mumbling idiot"? Can you back that up with anything?

RH

[Ghost]

This is a very good question and it goes to the assumptions that police made about the case. Isn't it more likely that JTR "seemed normal" for the most part? And wouldn't that cast doubt on the institutionalized candidates?

[gnote]

"mumbling idiot"? Can you back that up with anything?

RH

Paul Begg described him as an "unwashed drooling idiot" although it's believed the timing was wrong. He was not in such a state in 1888 but in 92 when he was admitted to the asylum. His medical records also indicate aural hallucinations.

[gnote]

This is a very good question and it goes to the assumptions that police made about the case. Isn't it more likely that JTR "seemed normal" for the most part? And wouldn't that cast doubt on the institutionalized candidates?

I certainly believe so but it comes down to timing. If Jack was somebody one might describe as "visibly insane" it's highly unlikely he would have been in that condition at the time of the murders. This does not mean he could not have eroded to such a state in the years following.

If the Ripper ever was in an asylum another possibility is that he had a stay prior. Believed to be "cured" (Vacher) or escaped (James Kelly)

[gnote]

Another good possibility is the Ripper being sent to prison for another crime. Have there been any good suspects among the inmates locked up that coincided with the apparent end to the Ripper murders? What makes a good suspect is obviously very subjective, but i guess a start would be at a minimum somebody from London's east end.

I assume this has been looked into already but i wouldn't know where to locate the thread(s).

[martin wilson]

Christmas Day At Broadmoor 1896.
An ex warders story, written for Reynolds Newspapers by R.J. Tucknor.

'As we proceeded the chief kept whispering, "you see that patient he is ----" one whose murderous deeds had thrilled the world with horror'

A somewhat sensationalised account of William Arnold's Christmas Eve at Broadmoor, perhaps given some credibility by his mention of seeing Edward Oxford, would be assassin of Queen Victoria.

Source; Voices from Broadmoor.

All the best.

[Rosella]

Another good possibility is the Ripper being sent to prison for another crime. Have there been any good suspects among the inmates locked up that coincided with the apparent end to the Ripper murders? What makes a good suspect is obviously very subjective, but i guess a start would be at a minimum somebody from London's east end.

I assume this has been looked into already but i wouldn't know where to locate the thread(s).

The only trouble with that scenario is that he would have to be given a very long sentence. Say Jack was 30 in 1888 and was imprisoned early in 1889. Even if he was given a fifteen or twenty year sentence for something horrendous that would only make him about fifty or less on release.

He would be more than capable at that age of continuing where he left off, and there are no records of a series of Ripper-like killings in the Edwardian era.

I suppose Jack could have been convicted of something, say violent assault, in the months after the Kelly murder and his mental condition eroded while in jail to such an extent that he was then confined to an institution for the criminally insane.