Appearances

[Bridewell]

Wrong.

Only Mary Kelly and Mary Ann Nichols were essentially full time prostitutes, and there is no evidence that Liz Stride, Kate Eddowes or Mary Kelly were actively soliciting on the night they met their murderer(s). Sure, many like you believe it regardless of the facts, but the facts are that ONLY Polly and Annie were actively soliciting at the time, by virtue of witnesses who they spoke with on the nights in question.

I was careful not to suggest that all these women were prostitutes, hence the following within my post:

"All these women either worked as prostitutes or were acting in such a way as might suggest that they were prostitutes."

Nichols was working as a prostitute on the night of her murder; Chapman likewise; Stride was on the street in one place for some time and so was acting in such a way as might suggest that she was a prostitute. Eddowes (if the Lawende sighting was of her) likewise. Mary Kelly was a prostitute; whether or not she was actively soliciting on the night of her murder is open to debate.
I don't believe anything "regardless of the facts", nor am I

Wrong

for saying that these women were "actively soliciting on the nights they met their murderer(s)" - because I didn't say it.

[sepiae]

significant post

I think that it is extremely difficult to not see symbolism when a killer takes a heart. And not just ripping it out of the chest, but a careful extraction. We see the heart as targeted. Male killer, female victim... how can we not see symbolism? I mean, it's become a known trope in killer movies where the killer takes the heart and in the end it turns out he did it because she wouldn't give it to him when he wanted it and the detectives look at the killer mournfully while the killer sobs with a broken heart etc...

And of course actual murderers have done that. Not serial killers as much, but a guy who kills his girlfriend etc? Yeah. They do that.

But there is a difference between symbolism and significance. I think taking the heart was significant. I think it meant something to the killer. But a symbol is an action or representation with an agreed upon meaning. Upside down yellow triangle sign means warning. Swastika means nazis. The gesture of waving your hand in front of your throat means "cut it out". Symbols. The goal of a symbol is to communicate meaning. I don't think the killer was trying to communicate, therefor, not a symbol. Did he do it because the heart is a symbol of love and devotion? Maybe. I think so. Did he take her heart because of what it symbolized to him? Maybe. I think so. Was he telling anybody anything about this murder or this woman by taking her heart? Maybe. But I don't think so. I don't think it was a symbol. I think it was significant.

Hi Errata,

that's an excellent distinction you're making, thanks.
I think the main issue with the hear and symbolism, is that while viewing it within the realm of symbolism might be inevitable, we'll probably apply varying symbolism. And will try to speak for how the perp might have seen it, what it meant to him, in various ways. The heart virtually calls out for it. This said, I'm suggesting that where it comes to significance the uterus might still have played the principle role to him. It was Kelly's heart he took, and it's possible that he'd always wanted the heart, and that it was simply too difficult out in the streets [the abdomen being soft, whereas one has to break through bones to get to the heart].
Somehow I don't believe it. Stab wounds to the abdomen featured from the start [what we accept as the start, rather], progressing as abdominal mutilation, which means attacks on the genital area, and extraction of the uterus. Your distinction is vital, because while we can only theorise about symbolism here, this being significant simply stands, and quite loudly so. And with Kelly it isn't obvious to me that he took the heart 'instead' of the uterus; he did something with the uterus, and it just might be possible that we're 'overrating' the taking away of the heart - that it might be the thing that supplied him with prolonged/repeated opportunity later, because he found to the placement of the uterus under the hat as something satisfying. That's a model, only to try and take some of the force out of the heart. Central, it seems, was the organ that represented womanhood. Still, the heart almost dictates significance, because of the symbolism that it holds, both for us and for him [though not necessarily the same].
Your last paragraph speaks to the heart, if you forgive the pun. I'd add the possibility of another 'life-centre', life-force', as which the heart is often seen. I once witnessed someone cutting his artery on a broken window, the force of the heartbeat is utterly impressive. But beside this demonstration of force as a muscle it remains symbolic, if we're using such words as 'life-centre', as you'd have equally less success in survival without a liver or your lungs.

[sepiae]

With all due respect, it could also be pivotal to the Victimology and Methodology. We don't know, that's my point, along with the point that assumptions about whom among the rest were actual prostitutes and prostituting solves nothing.....and Im also sure that hundreds of women in Whitechapel were forced at some point to sell themselves, that's why the term Unfortunate surfaced.

Single, unemployed and desperate, and among the Canonicals, we know that Liz Stride was getting regular decent work leading up to her death.

Cheers

Hi Michael W Richards,

yes, without wanting to fill the last corner from where to throw, I think you misunderstood what the others were saying, which was agreeing with your position.
And yes, absolutely pivotal: I believe 'prostitute' shouldn't feature in victimology. In fact, Stride wasn't the only one, they all did something else before having to resort to selling their bodies. Mainly, as you pointed out, we cannot say for sure whether 'prostitute' was at all something that featured vitally in what victim this perpetrator sought.
I'm also in favour not to calling these women prostitutes outside the considerations regarding whom the killer sought. It's such a prominent feature, not only in the, invariably inaccurate, fiction, but in what is generally thought and believed, 'JtR hunted prostitutes.' It just doesn't seem to be an apt way of describing these women.