Why those particular victims?

[c.d.]

I am not sure what we can conclude from that since it is possible that Mary found the missing key and had it visible in her room and the killer simply picked it up.

Sorry but I have to go now.

c.d.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello Rocky,

It seems to me that you could also reach a similar conclusion with regard to Kate. That is that her killer new her as well. Extensive mutilations including her face.

As for the significance of Mary's heart being taken, it simply could be that he had already acquired other organs and wanted to add something he did not have to his collection. It could also be that he fled in a hurry and simply grabbed something as a souvenir. The heart as a symbol of love is one thing, but as Sam Flynn put it, an actual slimy, bloody, smelly heart is quite another. I think way too much is being read into the whole heart thing.

c.d.

not sure he had enough time to get the heart of his other victims. Plus going through the sternum with a knife is something else entirely.

He could have taken her heart because he felt he had the time.

[RockySullivan]

I am not sure what we can conclude from that since it is possible that Mary found the missing key and had it visible in her room and the killer simply picked it up.

Sorry but I have to go now.

c.d.

I doubt mary just happened to find the key the night she was murdered while she was apparently drunk that night. Much more likely the Ripper was in possession of Mary Kelly's key...whether he'd stolen it at an earlier date or he had a copy (McCarthey, Barnett).

[RockySullivan]

I doubt mary just happened to find the key the night she was murdered while she was apparently drunk that night. Much more likely the Ripper was in possession of Mary Kelly's key...whether he'd stolen it at an earlier date or he had a copy (McCarthey, Barnett).

I guess perhaps the door was a spring lock that locked on it's one from reading the old threads....

[Rosella]

In that case, why couldn't the killer have reached through the broken window to the spring lock to let himself in while Mary was sleeping and after her last client had left? The fact that Mary routinely opened her door like that might have become known to some of her regulars.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Sir John

not sure he had enough time to get the heart of his other victims. Plus going through the sternum with a knife is something else entirely.

Is it possible perhaps that the killer discovered this in using a larger blade on one particular Martha Tabram wound? But then never had a realistic opportunity to explore an alternative route until MJK?

Just a thought, inspired by Tom's excellent book...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Rocky

I guess perhaps the door was a spring lock that locked on it's one from reading the old threads....

Yes, all the evidence suggests the lock was some kind of spring lock...but with many of these, they only lock if only if a latch pin is released... otherwise the door remains closed by a "catch" but not fully locked...it's possible she was so drunk she went to sleep before releasing the latch and locking the door...perhaps the killer dropped the latch as he left...

But I'm sure someone else here is more expert on LVP spring locks than I and can elucidate...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

The idea the killer lifted the latch suggests burglary or B & E, which is not consistent with the M.O. of the previous murders.
These M.O.'s are like chalk & cheese, oil & water, they couldn't be more different. If it happened that way then it wasn't Jacky Boy who killed Mary - and that's a tough sell.
When the Yorkshire Ripper murdered his only "indoor" victim it was not because he broke into her apartment, he was invited in.

[Cogidubnus]

lifting the latch or not?

Hi Jon,

Would an LVP killer, possibly desperate after a month's break, bother to make such a distinction, or would he perhaps simply see a suddenly offered favour (whichever way it was delivered) as an opportunity?

Moreover, how much would he feel suddenly empowered, and how might this affect his "performance".

No ulterior motive...just something that's bugging me following your post...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Would an LVP killer, possibly desperate after a month's break, bother to make such a distinction, or would he perhaps simply see a suddenly offered favour (whichever way it was delivered) as an opportunity?

Moreover, how much would he feel suddenly empowered, and how might this affect his "performance".

No ulterior motive...just something that's bugging me following your post...

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave.
I'm inclined to think this killer, if feeling the heat too much in Spitalfields/Whitechapel, is more likely to move to Bethnal Green or St. George, than to change his M.O.
Of course, changing his M.O. is not an option if we accept this killer was invited in by Mary.

[Harry D]

It is quite extraordinary that the Ripper was never caught in the act. You have to wonder how he would've reacted. Would he have quickly tried to silence any witnesses? What if it was some burly bloke and not a half-cut hooker who spotted him? Or he would have scarpered hoping that they didn't get a good look at him?

[Rosella]

I just get the feeling that if Jack got the opportunity to run away into the darkness then he would have. If, however, he was trapped in a yard or blind alley by a couple of burly males then he might well have tried slashing at arms, faces etc with his knife in an effort to get away. Whether he would have succeeded is another matter.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

It is quite extraordinary that the Ripper was never caught in the act. You have to wonder how he would've reacted. Would he have quickly tried to silence any witnesses? What if it was some burly bloke and not a half-cut hooker who spotted him? Or he would have scarpered hoping that they didn't get a good look at him?

I have a feeling that he would have been coward about it, depending when he was caught. He would run. If it was post Chapman, the witness only had to shout "Ripper" and I'm sure in a matter of minutes the man would have been lynched.

[Michael W Richards]

If you want to know how the killer likely got into Marys room, all you need do is review the evidence given by Sarah Lewis and Elizabeth Prater, both heard a woman exclaim "oh-murder" at approximately the same time, and there is no record of anyone coming forward to claim that they were that voice. Sarah heard the voice as being loud...she was in the court at the time, and Elizabeth heard it "faintly". as if the sound was carried up to her and entered via an open window. Hence, its quite probable that Mary answered a soft knock on the door or the window, waking Diddles upstairs, and when she opened the door she was hung over and dismayed to see someone she knew standing there...which is the more probable answer as to what "oh-murder" actually referred to. There is no noise that followed that cry out, suggesting that they door was closed again, and the attack on Mary had not commenced. Since Mary is undressed when killed we also have some evidence that she was in the company of someone she knew.

The facial slashing back and forth, nothing like the specific way Kates nose was cut, is again another clue that her killer knew her.

Cheers

[Harry D]

Hello, Michael.

Interesting hypothesis.

There is no noise that followed that cry out, suggesting that they door was closed again, and the attack on Mary had not commenced.

Why couldn't the killer have barged in and incapacitated her there and then?

If your scenario is to be believed, then it does narrow down the list of possible Ripper candidates. Where would Joseph Fleming rank among them?