An attempt to shed some new light on JTR

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    Commissioner
    • May 2017
    • 23397

    #31
    Is the proposition that all of the victims were killed elsewhere or is it just Eddowes that’s being suggested? I’m assuming that Stride is being discounted as a victim (I have no issue with that by the way as I don’t believe that it’s proven that she was - it doesn’t mean that she wasn’t though of course) And Kelly of course had to have been killed where she was found.

    Either way the problem is surely a sizeable one…the risk of being seen carrying a body around in streets where Constable’s were on patrol. For example, where in Hanbury Street could the killer have exited some form of transport carrying a mutilated corpse unseen, then selected at random an open door, risking coming face to face with someone on his way to work? Recall, John Richardson said that the body wasn’t there at 4.45 when it was just getting light. So this meant that the killer would have had to have carried the corpse, whatever distance from transport to number 29, in broad daylight. This hardly seems likely.

    In Mitre Square, if the killer used transport, then it’s unlikely that he could have driven this into the square itself as George Morris was sweeping with the door of Kearley and Tonge open so we would have to ask how he didn’t hear the echo of horses hooves in an otherwise silent square? If he had parked in Duke Street or Mitre Street this again gives us the problem and risk of carrying a mutilated corpse quite a few yards to its eventual location. And in neither of the above cases was there any blood drips found or evidence in situ which suggested that they hadn’t been killed where they were found.

    There should be no issue with looking at new angles but I’ve never accepted this view that some have that there are some want to preserve some kind of status quo or that there is some expanse between two perceived ‘factions’ in ripperology. I think that it’s a case that some are perhaps more cautious than others. We have to respect the evidence whilst not treating all of it as holy writ. Witnesses can be honestly mistaken for example and we have to be cautious about accepting stated timings as being spot on and all perfectly synchronised.

    On your question about any suspect with a link to Mitre Square - can only think of one and that was only a speculated link. Poster DJA (no longer a member) had a suspect Dr Henry Gawen Sutton who was a colleague of Gull’s. Dave (DJA) believed that he had a bolt-hole at 6 Mitre Street but I’m pretty sure that this was just a hunch on his part (someone might know differently of course)

    You probably already knew this but at number 3 Mitre Square lived City Police Constable Richard Pearce.
    Herlock Sholmes

    ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

    Comment

    • Scott Nelson
      Superintendent
      • Feb 2008
      • 2503

      #32
      Dave Adams could never adequately explain how Dr. Sutton, if he strangled Eddowes inside 6 Mitre St., got her body into the corner of Mitre Square.

      Comment

      • Pcdunn
        Superintendent
        • Dec 2014
        • 2347

        #33
        Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
        Dave Adams could never adequately explain how Dr. Sutton, if he strangled Eddowes inside 6 Mitre St., got her body into the corner of Mitre Square.
        Wheelbarrow, perhaps? That had been also suggested for Nichols early in the investigation, due to the supposed "blood drops" found elswehere, later ruled out as being connected to her murder.
        Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
        ---------------
        Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
        ---------------

        Comment

        • jasan
          Cadet
          • Jun 2025
          • 14

          #34
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          Is the proposition that all of the victims were killed elsewhere or is it just Eddowes that’s being suggested? I’m assuming that Stride is being discounted as a victim (I have no issue with that by the way as I don’t believe that it’s proven that she was - it doesn’t mean that she wasn’t though of course) And Kelly of course had to have been killed where she was found.

          Either way the problem is surely a sizeable one…the risk of being seen carrying a body around in streets where Constable’s were on patrol. For example, where in Hanbury Street could the killer have exited some form of transport carrying a mutilated corpse unseen, then selected at random an open door, risking coming face to face with someone on his way to work? Recall, John Richardson said that the body wasn’t there at 4.45 when it was just getting light. So this meant that the killer would have had to have carried the corpse, whatever distance from transport to number 29, in broad daylight. This hardly seems likely.

          In Mitre Square, if the killer used transport, then it’s unlikely that he could have driven this into the square itself as George Morris was sweeping with the door of Kearley and Tonge open so we would have to ask how he didn’t hear the echo of horses hooves in an otherwise silent square? If he had parked in Duke Street or Mitre Street this again gives us the problem and risk of carrying a mutilated corpse quite a few yards to its eventual location. And in neither of the above cases was there any blood drips found or evidence in situ which suggested that they hadn’t been killed where they were found.

          There should be no issue with looking at new angles but I’ve never accepted this view that some have that there are some want to preserve some kind of status quo or that there is some expanse between two perceived ‘factions’ in ripperology. I think that it’s a case that some are perhaps more cautious than others. We have to respect the evidence whilst not treating all of it as holy writ. Witnesses can be honestly mistaken for example and we have to be cautious about accepting stated timings as being spot on and all perfectly synchronised.

          On your question about any suspect with a link to Mitre Square - can only think of one and that was only a speculated link. Poster DJA (no longer a member) had a suspect Dr Henry Gawen Sutton who was a colleague of Gull’s. Dave (DJA) believed that he had a bolt-hole at 6 Mitre Street but I’m pretty sure that this was just a hunch on his part (someone might know differently of course)

          You probably already knew this but at number 3 Mitre Square lived City Police Constable Richard Pearce.
          Since I'm not sure you've read all the posts in this thread, I'd like to ask you the following.
          Can I have your opinion on this little parable of mine?
          https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...541#post861541
          In which I tried to strip the Eddowes case to the bare minimum to show that
          speculation "he doesn't kill and mutilate on the crime sites"
          is a viable option.

          Also, thanks for answering my question.
          Last edited by jasan; Today, 01:11 AM.

          Comment

          • Herlock Sholmes
            Commissioner
            • May 2017
            • 23397

            #35
            Originally posted by jasan View Post

            Since I'm not sure you've read all the posts in this thread, I'd like to ask you the following.
            Can I have your opinion on this little parable of mine?
            https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...541#post861541
            In which I tried to strip the Eddowes case to the bare minimum to show that
            speculation "he doesn't kill and mutilate on the crime sites"
            is a viable option.

            Also, thanks for answering my question.

            To look at other options is certainly a good thing Jasan and, as you will know, the Knight/Sickert theory also proposed that the victims were killed elsewhere (other reasons to do with the evidence tell us that this particular version has no basis in fact though)


            The man that re-enters the room ever minute situation is different from Mitre Square in that the killer, on hearing an approaching Constable would have had a means of exiting the square unlike the man in the room who would have been trapped.

            Also, if the Doctors and police deduced from the crime scene that the victim had been killed elsewhere they would naturally have assumed that the killer had used some form of horse-drawn carriage which would have focused their attention on drivers of such vehicles making it massively more difficult for the killer to have repeated that method.

            A horse-drawn carriage would also have been noisier which would have increased the chances of him being heard…someone looks out of their window etc

            A killer that had arrived in a carriage and then needed to escape quickly due to a constable arriving would have been hampered by having to head for, climb aboard and start off a carriage. This would have slowed him down and restricted his options (if he didn’t want to run away and leave the carriage)
            Herlock Sholmes

            ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

            Comment

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