What influenced the Ripper?

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  • The Rookie Detective
    Chief Inspector
    • Apr 2019
    • 1962

    #1

    What influenced the Ripper?

    Hello all.


    Was the Ripper influenced by anatomical wax models?

    In the late 18th century (1780 - 1790) there were lifelike wax models that were made and presented to the public, in various places including Bologna and Florence (including others)

    These wax models were a combination of artistic beauty combined with anatomical accuracy; whereby parts of the models could be opened up, dissected and removed to reveal the inner workings of the human form.

    The models drew a lot of attention and curiosity, and were seen as revolutionary to the medical world, as well as intriguing to the general public who could view the various models laying in state.

    It could be argued that the models closely resemble the manner in which the Ripper displayed and presented some of his victims around a century later.

    Could these models have influenced the mind of the Ripper?

    Perhaps

    But we need something closer to home, something tangible.

    Wax models from a century before the murders seems too far removed.

    However, there was a man who brought the idea of those wax models into the forefront of thinking in London and whose work had an influence and direct impact on the medical world of the Victorian era, and an influence that is still felt to this day.

    A man named Joseph Towne

    Joseph Towne was a sculptor and anatomical modeller.

    Born on 25th November 1806 in Royston, and son of Reverend Thomas Towne who himself was a director of the London Missionary society.
    Joseph developed an interest in the field of anatomical modelling from a young age, and in 1825 at the age of 18, Joseph had built a full model of a skeleton that he took to a professor of anatomy.
    The reception he received was so positive that he then took the Skeleton to London to enter into a competition.
    He was introduced to a surgeon at Guys Hospital in London, who had seen the Skeleton and analysed it for its anatomical accuracy. The surgeon was so impressed that within a short space of time, Joseph was offered a job as the anatomical modeller for the medical school situated at Guys hospital.

    Long story short...

    Joseph Towne remained as the anatomical modeller and sculptor at Guys Hospital for 53 years.

    He died on the 25th June 1879.

    Interestingly, he remained loyal to Guys Hospital and refused to work for any of the other London Hospitals who had requested his services.

    In his 53 years at Guys, Joseph Towne had produced countless numbers of wax models and sculptors to aid the medical school and the various doctors and surgeons who used his models directly for training purposes.

    So how does this all relate to the Ripper?

    Well, we can be sure that Joseph himself wasn't the Ripper as he died in 1879.

    We can also be sure that Joseph's son and namesake Joseph, was also not the Ripper. Joseph (junior) was a medical/surgical student who died of consumption aged just 21 years old.

    Going back to Joseph Towne (senior) ;the work he did on creating lifelike and macabre representations of various illnesses and diseases, is arguably something that would have influenced the scores of surgeons and doctors who had used his models to learn and test their own skills and abilities.

    Joseph had used the earlier "anatomical venuses" as his inspiration to create his own lifelike wax models. But the key difference being that Joseph's work was devoid of any interest in making his models look beautiful or artistic. Instead, Joseph opted for realism over art, and some of his models were particularly grotesque. This was done deliberately for the benefit of those using his models for training purposes.

    Above all, his models were seen as emotive.

    And that's perhaps the most relevant point here.

    When we look at some of Joseph's wax modelling work, we can perhaps see how an Impressionable medical and/or surgical student could be influenced by it and use it as a means to not only learn about anatomy, but to use that knowledge and apply it in real terms by choosing to murder and mutilate women on the street.

    In summary, when we combine the original anatomical venuses from the 1780's and 1790's and then combine those with the work of Joseph Towne, who then went on to make wax models that were then used directly by surgeons and doctors who were training at Guys hospital, then we can see a potential link between the wax models and the way in which they may just have been the initial spark that drove the Ripper to kill.

    I would consider taking a closer look at any and every surgeon and doctor that had trained at Guys. We can be certain that they would have all used Joseph's models to gain anatomical knowledge.

    I believe that IF the Ripper was a surgeon or doctor, then he did indeed train at Guys hospital, and then used Joseph's models (who himself had been influenced by the anatomical venuses) to learn his trade.
    But more probably; a failed surgeon or someone who failed to complete their training.

    What's interesting to add is that Joseph's wax models survive to this day and are still used for training purposes. They can still be found at the museum at Guys Hospital.
    Joseph's wax models were the gold standard of the time and have stood the test of time; a testament to Joseph's skills as an anatomical modeller and sculptor.

    But it's not only Joseph's work that still exists; the anatomical venuses that inspired Joseph himself, also still exist, and can be found in a public museum in Italy.

    Is Joseph Towne's life work the link between the anatomical venuses and the man who went on to become the Ripper?

    Take a look for yourself.



    "Great minds, don't think alike"
  • The Rookie Detective
    Chief Inspector
    • Apr 2019
    • 1962

    #2
    Anatomical wax model from 1782, located at a museum in Italy...

    The similarity with Kelly should not be overlooked or dismissed.

    Click image for larger version

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    Macabre, yet fascinating all the same.
    "Great minds, don't think alike"

    Comment

    • The Rookie Detective
      Chief Inspector
      • Apr 2019
      • 1962

      #3
      Joseph Towne's wax model of a dissection of the torso... circa 1830's...

      Click image for larger version  Name:	file.jpg Views:	0 Size:	70.9 KB ID:	858337
      When we consider the question; how and where could the Ripper have learned anatomical knowledge?

      This model used for training by the surgeons and doctors at Guys hospital may just be a viable option in trying to find an answer.

      "Great minds, don't think alike"

      Comment

      • Geddy2112
        Inspector
        • Dec 2015
        • 1387

        #4
        Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
        The similarity with Kelly should not be overlooked or dismissed.
        I think it should be, amazingly enough you open up a human woman and it will look like that. I still blame the escaped tiger...

        Jack the Ripper - Double Cross

        Comment

        • Patrick Differ
          Detective
          • Dec 2024
          • 333

          #5
          Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
          Joseph Towne's wax model of a dissection of the torso... circa 1830's...

          Click image for larger version Name:	file.jpg Views:	0 Size:	70.9 KB ID:	858337
          When we consider the question; how and where could the Ripper have learned anatomical knowledge?

          This model used for training by the surgeons and doctors at Guys hospital may just be a viable option in trying to find an answer.
          Thats pretty amazing. Wonder if these were in local museums?

          Comment

          • Geddy2112
            Inspector
            • Dec 2015
            • 1387

            #6
            Originally posted by Patrick Differ View Post

            Thats pretty amazing. Wonder if these were in local museums?
            Some of the Pro-Lechmere theorists claim he was influenced by the Wax works of the anatomical Venus that was on display in the West End.

            https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...d-he-have-paid
            Jack the Ripper - Double Cross

            Comment

            • The Rookie Detective
              Chief Inspector
              • Apr 2019
              • 1962

              #7
              Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post

              Some of the Pro-Lechmere theorists claim he was influenced by the Wax works of the anatomical Venus that was on display in the West End.

              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...d-he-have-paid
              Respectfully, Lechmere has nothing to do with my thread.

              And he had no access to the Guys Hospital anatomical models to which I am referring.

              Anyone wanting to discuss Lechmere, kindly do it elsewhere.

              The anatomical venuses in Italy were displayed to the general public in museums, but the work of Joseph Towne was exclusively in England to Guys hospital (although he did make models for overseas)

              Unless Lechmere was a doctor, surgeon or clinican then he has no relevance to my thread.
              "Great minds, don't think alike"

              Comment

              • bonestrewn
                Constable
                • Aug 2014
                • 59

                #8
                Hi Rookie

                I find this idea very evocative. I do think that the visual aspects of the Ripper's killings are significant, which is one reason why I count Martha Tabram as a JTR victim. His use of posing makes it really clear that he was thinking about how his victims would be found, including Mary, especially given that he turned her face toward the door (or let it fall that way) so that not only was she very grotesquely on display, she was also looking at the people who found her.

                I wonder if there are other parallels in popular representations of female death at the time. When I look at an anatomical Venus, I see a recognizable death pose reminiscent of Millais' Ophelia. Obviously, there is a degree of inevitability about portraying a dead body lying supine, but especially given JTR's apparent hatred of women and consciousness of the "image" he created, it would make sense for him to be influenced by images either from popular culture or from the circumstances you describe.

                Thank you for sharing!

                Comment

                • The Rookie Detective
                  Chief Inspector
                  • Apr 2019
                  • 1962

                  #9
                  Originally posted by bonestrewn View Post
                  Hi Rookie

                  I find this idea very evocative. I do think that the visual aspects of the Ripper's killings are significant, which is one reason why I count Martha Tabram as a JTR victim. His use of posing makes it really clear that he was thinking about how his victims would be found, including Mary, especially given that he turned her face toward the door (or let it fall that way) so that not only was she very grotesquely on display, she was also looking at the people who found her.

                  I wonder if there are other parallels in popular representations of female death at the time. When I look at an anatomical Venus, I see a recognizable death pose reminiscent of Millais' Ophelia. Obviously, there is a degree of inevitability about portraying a dead body lying supine, but especially given JTR's apparent hatred of women and consciousness of the "image" he created, it would make sense for him to be influenced by images either from popular culture or from the circumstances you describe.

                  Thank you for sharing!
                  Absolutely excellent post and response.

                  I agree that the Ripper posed and displayed his victims in a manner that would indicate a deliberate intention for his efforts to have an impact on the person or persons who would find them.

                  Kelly looking towards the door is certainly one particular detail that certainly eludes to that idea.
                  "Great minds, don't think alike"

                  Comment

                  • Mike J. G.
                    Sergeant
                    • May 2017
                    • 845

                    #10
                    Well it's been argued that Peter Sutcliffe was into viewing wax models of corpses down in Morecambe, and Richard Whittington Egan proposed as much for "Jack" in his excellent Casebook.

                    Personally I don't think the killer was influenced by any one thing in particular. Dahmer's fetish was partly sparked by the sight of roadkill, which he went on to play with by himself. Gein may have been triggered by watching his parents butchering pigs on the family farm, but it's hard to really say if these events were what influenced them to go on and do what they did, but it definitely would have added to their interests. I think whoever the killer was, they got their fetish from somewhere, and Whitechapel was rife with slaughterhouses and butchers. Maybe he spent a little more time than he needed to when watching the knackerers at work.

                    Comment

                    • Geddy2112
                      Inspector
                      • Dec 2015
                      • 1387

                      #11
                      Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                      Respectfully, Lechmere has nothing to do with my thread.

                      Anyone wanting to discuss Lechmere, kindly do it elsewhere.
                      Ooo touchy touchy, you asked if Jack was influenced by the wax models and all I did was state that some people who think Lechmere was the Ripper think he was influenced by the wax models and I linked to a thread discussing it. I do not think Cross was JtR so obviously I do not think he was influenced by the wax models. I'm sorry but you can't open a thread then half way through decided what people can and can't discuss relating to the topic. Which I clearly was. I presume your dig at me was more because I suggested any connection to the wax works should be dismissed in an earlier post... yes I'll settle for that.
                      Jack the Ripper - Double Cross

                      Comment

                      • The Rookie Detective
                        Chief Inspector
                        • Apr 2019
                        • 1962

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post

                        Ooo touchy touchy, you asked if Jack was influenced by the wax models and all I did was state that some people who think Lechmere was the Ripper think he was influenced by the wax models and I linked to a thread discussing it. I do not think Cross was JtR so obviously I do not think he was influenced by the wax models. I'm sorry but you can't open a thread then half way through decided what people can and can't discuss relating to the topic. Which I clearly was. I presume your dig at me was more because I suggested any connection to the wax works should be dismissed in an earlier post... yes I'll settle for that.
                        Good response

                        I was trying to highlight that Lechmere is not the topic of discussion, and while you claim to not believe he was the Ripper, he appears to form the vast majority of your contribution to the threads; ergo, you refer to Lechmere more than anyone.
                        I perceive that as a form of reverse psychology, whereby you repeatedly mention that Lechmere wasn't the Ripper, and yet you keep bringing him up.

                        That's your prerogative of course.

                        It wasn't a personal dig, just an observation based on the fact that certain posters saturate threads by deliberately diffusing the topic of conversation by diverting from the fundermental basis of the topic being discussed.


                        You are of course free to post what you like, and if you choose to ruin the thread by mentioning Lechmere again, then who am I to stop it.
                        It's only a matter of time before other posters join the fray in an attempt to saturate the thread with unrelated posts.

                        I admit that I find it frustrating when I start a thread that is intended to be sincere and thought provoking, and it then descends into talk about Lechmere.

                        Once Herlock and Trevor start having another stubborn and exhaustive circular argument that goes nowhere, then I will know it's time to move on, haha!

                        No offense intended to you whatsoever, but once you admit you're a Lechmere supporter for the Ripper, then we can all rest easy.


                        "Great minds, don't think alike"

                        Comment

                        • kjab3112
                          Detective
                          • May 2016
                          • 204

                          #13
                          Interestingly the public museums were effectively closed down in the UK by the obscene publications act. The most famous of these was that of “Dr” Kahn which was based around Oxford Street and Piccadilly Circus. These were closed down by the 1870s and although expensive could fit with a thirty year old ripper trying to reconstruct his childhood memories.

                          I’ve hopefully attached a photo of the Kahn Venus.

                          Paul

                          Click image for larger version

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                          • Geddy2112
                            Inspector
                            • Dec 2015
                            • 1387

                            #14
                            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                            I was trying to highlight that Lechmere is not the topic of discussion, and while you claim to not believe he was the Ripper, he appears to form the vast majority of your contribution to the threads; ergo, you refer to Lechmere more than anyone.
                            I perceive that as a form of reverse psychology, whereby you repeatedly mention that Lechmere wasn't the Ripper, and yet you keep bringing him up.
                            You start a topic regarding the Ripper and some people think Cross was the Ripper. All I did was point out that some people think Cross was influenced by the wax works and that I disagree. My point could not have been more 'on topic' to be fair. I bring him up because I've for that last 18 months been I've been writing a book about him, he is my current 'hot topic' so to speak, sorry if that bores you. (There is nothing to stop you from ignoring my post.) I did not bring him up in my first post in this thread and I did not bring him up in my post in the Mary Kelly thread either.

                            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                            It wasn't a personal dig, just an observation based on the fact that certain posters saturate threads by deliberately diffusing the topic of conversation by diverting from the fundamental basis of the topic being discussed.
                            It certainly felt like one hence I replied. Like I said my post was 100% completely on-topic and I thought it added weight to the narrative so I'm not sure how I'm deliberately diffusing the topic of conversation to be honest.

                            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                            You are of course free to post what you like, and if you choose to ruin the thread by mentioning Lechmere again, then who am I to stop it.
                            It's only a matter of time before other posters join the fray in an attempt to saturate the thread with unrelated posts.
                            The only one ruining the thread is you by suggesting an on-topic post is ruining the thread and making thinly veiled attacks against posters who are doing so.

                            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                            I admit that I find it frustrating when I start a thread that is intended to be sincere and thought provoking, and it then descends into talk about Lechmere.
                            Sorry to inform you but Cross rightly or wrongly is a suspect in these crimes. So threads about the crimes are by their very nature liable to have him mentioned. Are you going to tell us we can talk about the wax works but not allowed to mention Maybrick or Kosminski or are you only discriminating against Cross?

                            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                            No offense intended to you whatsoever, but once you admit you're a Lechmere supporter for the Ripper, then we can all rest easy.
                            However I'm not and never did admit I'm a supporter of Cross for the Ripper...

                            Jack the Ripper - Double Cross

                            Comment

                            • FrankO
                              Superintendent
                              • Feb 2008
                              • 2137

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post
                              I think it should be, amazingly enough you open up a human woman and it will look like that.
                              Hi Ian,

                              I agree that anybody who would cut open a human woman and pull and/or cut out one or more organs it would look like that. But that's not the question here. The way I look at it, RD's question lies before that: why would anybody want to open up a female body? Why would anybody want to cut and pull out slippery organs?

                              If he hated women so much, he could have just strangled them, stabbed or bludgeoned them to death or just have cut her throat (or any combination of that) and have left them like that. Seeing that he committed his first and most murders out in the streets, that would have been much less risky than sticking around to lay her down, work up her skirts, open up their abdomen, andsoforth. So, it's a very fair thing to wonder what sparked his interest in cutting his victims' abdomen up, etc.. and the idea of these anatomical wax models as an answer is a good one. Of course, we have no way of knowing if it's the right answer, but it's a good one nevertheless.

                              Cheers,
                              Frank
                              Last edited by FrankO; Today, 11:37 AM.
                              "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                              Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

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