Did The Ripper Remove Organs?

[GBinOz]

But Trev, have you given thought as to when the thief took Chapman`s organs ?
Not only was there no time before the postmortem, the body was guarded

Was it Jon?

I posted some extracts from the inquest in my post # 80.

Phillips testified: "The body had been attended to since its removal to the mortuary, and probably partially washed".

Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

Nurse Sarah Simonds stated "She was directed by Inspector Chandler to undress it, and she placed the clothes in a corner. She left the handkerchief round the neck. She was sure of this".

Chander denied this instruction came from him, and subsequently it was found that the guardian of the mortuary had given this order.

Coroner to Chandler: Were you present when the doctor was making his post-mortem? - Yes.
[Coroner] Did you see the doctor find the handkerchief produced? - It was taken off the body. I picked it up from off the clothing, which was in the corner of the room. I gave it to Dr. Phillips, and he asked me to put it in some water, which I did.
[Coroner] Did you see the handkerchief taken off the body? - I did not. The nurses must have taken it off the throat.
[Coroner] How do you know? - I don't know.
[Coroner] Then you are guessing? - I am guessing.

If the body was locked in the mortuary with a guard, how is it that the nurses "found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table". The nurse incorrectly stated that Chandler had instructed her to undress the body, but Chandler wasn't even there at that time. The nurse said she left the handkerchief tied around the neck, but at the post mortem it was found amongst the pile of clothing.

[Jon Guy]

Was it Jon?

I posted some extracts from the inquest in my post # 80.

Phillips testified: "The body had been attended to since its removal to the mortuary, and probably partially washed".

Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

Nurse Sarah Simonds stated "She was directed by Inspector Chandler to undress it, and she placed the clothes in a corner. She left the handkerchief round the neck. She was sure of this".

Chander denied this instruction came from him, and subsequently it was found that the guardian of the mortuary had given this order.

Coroner to Chandler: Were you present when the doctor was making his post-mortem? - Yes.
[Coroner] Did you see the doctor find the handkerchief produced? - It was taken off the body. I picked it up from off the clothing, which was in the corner of the room. I gave it to Dr. Phillips, and he asked me to put it in some water, which I did.
[Coroner] Did you see the handkerchief taken off the body? - I did not. The nurses must have taken it off the throat.
[Coroner] How do you know? - I don't know.
[Coroner] Then you are guessing? - I am guessing.

If the body was locked in the mortuary with a guard, how is it that the nurses "found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table". The nurse incorrectly stated that Chandler had instructed her to undress the body, but Chandler wasn't even there at that time. The nurse said she left the handkerchief tied around the neck, but at the post mortem it was found amongst the pile of clothing.

Hi George

Yes !!

I don`t know where "locked in the mortuary" comes from. I don`t think anyone said that.

Does the nurse state that the body was unattended inn the yard?

Both Robert Mann and PC Barnes 376H were left in charge of the body by Insp Chandler.

Mann left the body when the nurses arrived to attend to the body.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is not one scrap of evidence to show that any of the doctors made a cursory examination of the body and found organs missing. If they had, they would have documented it. Because the most relevant issue here is at the inquest, when the topic of the missing organs came up, do you not think one of the doctors might have said, "Well, they were when we did a cursory examination of the body."

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Debating any subject with you is pointless if that subject is one of the various theories that you propose and that no one ever agrees with.

The organs were taken by the killer. Not one person at the time suspected otherwise. I’ve explained the obvious fact that organ thieves would have only taken organs after the post Mortem had occurred but you either can’t grasp this simple point or you just ignore it because it disproves your baseless theory.

22-0 btw. No one agrees with you as per usual Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

Debating any subject with you is pointless if that subject is one of the various theories that you propose and that no one ever agrees with.

The organs were taken by the killer. Not one person at the time suspected otherwise. I’ve explained the obvious fact that organ thieves would have only taken organs after the post Mortem had occurred but you either can’t grasp this simple point or you just ignore it because it disproves your baseless theory.

22-0 btw. No one agrees with you as per usual Trevor.

Au contraire mon ami

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

Hi George

Yes !!

I don`t know where "locked in the mortuary" comes from. I don`t think anyone said that.

Does the nurse state that the body was unattended inn the yard?

Both Robert Mann and PC Barnes 376H were left in charge of the body by Insp Chandler.

Mann left the body when the nurses arrived to attend to the body.

Hi Jon,

From the inquest as reported by:

The Daily Telegraph:
Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police.

Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

The Daily News:
Inspector Chandler, recalled, said that when he saw the body it did not appear to have been disturbed. He left the body in charge of the mortuary keeper till the doctor arrived.

Robert Mansell, and inmate of the workhouse, deposed that he was mortuary keeper and received the body of the deceased at 7 o'clock on Saturday morning.

The Coroner - Are you prepared to say that no one touched the body till the doctor arrived? - Not till the nurses came and undressed it. The doctor came about 2 o'clock. I may have gone away for a short time, but locked the door. Nobody touched the body except the nurses.

Mary Elizabeth Simonds said - I am a nurse at the Whitechapel Union Infirmary. On Sept. 8 I was requested to attend the mortuary with the senior nurse, whose name I think is Frances Wright. I first saw the body on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken to the shed and placed on a table.

The Times:
Robert Mann, an inmate of the Whitechapel Union, stated that he had charge of the mortuary. At 7 o'clock on Saturday morning he received the body of the deceased, and remained with it until the doctor arrived at 2 o'clock. Two nurses from the infirmary came and undressed the body. He was not in the shed when that was done.

Mary Elizabeth Simonds, nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, said on Saturday morning she and a nurse named Frances Wright were instructed to go to the mortuary. The body was lying on the ambulance. They were directed by Inspector Chandler to undress the deceased. Witness took the clothes off and placed them in a corner of the shed. They left the handkerchief round the neck of deceased. They washed the blood off the body. There was blood on the chest, as if it had run down from the throat. She found the pocket, the strings of which were not broken.
Inspector Chandler stated he did not instruct the nurses to undress and wash the body.
The Coroner's officer said it was done by order of the clerk to the guardians.

So the testimony is that the shed was locked up with the key in the hands of the police from 7am when the body arrived until 2pm when the doctor arrived. Five hours would be plenty of time for a procedure that Brown described as taking only minutes. The body was locked in the mortuary when Chandler left. Why would the body have been wheeled out into the yard, unattended or not, for the nurses to find, and then wheeled back in? Why did the nurses strip the body allegedly on instruction from Chandler, but discovered by the coroner's officer to have been by order of the clerk to the Board of Guardians? How did this clerk presume to have authority to impinge on a murder case? How was it that the nurse testified the handkerchief was left around the neck when it was found later by Phillips and Chandler to be amongst the other clothing? No big deal? It was apparently a big enough deal for the coroner to suggest that Chandler was incompetent because he didn't know how that occurred...because he wasn't there at the time. Mann testified that he was not in the shed when the nurses stripped and washed the body, so he wouldn't have known who was there. Was the clerk to the Board of Guardians supervising the nurses that he had instructed? The police officer is not mentioned in the regard. Was he inside the shed watching the body, or outside guarding the door?

There is way to much here that appears to be not quite right, IMO. YMMV.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The organs were taken by the killer. Not one person at the time suspected otherwise. I’ve explained the obvious fact that organ thieves would have only taken organs after the post Mortem had occurred but you either can’t grasp this simple point or you just ignore it because it disproves your baseless theory.

22-0 btw. No one agrees with you as per usual Trevor.
Well, no one that participates in polls.

The task of Phillips at the crime scene was to determine if life was extinct, how long she had been dead and to gather any medical clues around the body to attempt to determine the circumstances of the murder. There were obvious injuries noticed, the cut throat, the protruding tongue and the intestines being placed over the right shoulder. But the removal of the uterus was something that was determined at the autopsy.

Baxter was obviously at a loss to explain the missing organs. He asked Badham whether he was sure he took all parts away, and Phillips whether the organ could have fallen out in transport. The latter was a question to which Phillips should have replied "no, it was missing at the crime scene", but he didn't. He replied "I was not present at the transit. I carefully closed up the clothes of the woman. Some portions had been excised". The nurses were asked if body parts might have been tangled up in the clothing they removed, to which they replied in the negative. I think it fair to say there were some suspicions at the time.

As I detailed in my post #155 to Jon, there appears to have been both time and opportunity for organ removal before the autopsy in the Chapman case, but one would think that, after that, more security would have been implemented for Eddowes. On the other hand, the lifting of the small intestines out of the abdomen and their placement over the right shoulder to give a clearer field indicates to me that this was preparation for further evisceration. The question remains, what scenarios allows a realistic time for these dissections.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The task of Phillips at the crime scene was to determine if life was extinct, how long she had been dead and to gather any medical clues around the body to attempt to determine the circumstances of the murder. There were obvious injuries noticed, the cut throat, the protruding tongue and the intestines being placed over the right shoulder. But the removal of the uterus was something that was determined at the autopsy.

The problem with that George is that Phillips wasn’t at the crime scene.

Baxter was obviously at a loss to explain the missing organs. He asked Badham whether he was sure he took all parts away, and Phillips whether the organ could have fallen out in transport. The latter was a question to which Phillips should have replied "no, it was missing at the crime scene", but he didn't. He replied "I was not present at the transit. I carefully closed up the clothes of the woman. Some portions had been excised". The nurses were asked if body parts might have been tangled up in the clothing they removed, to which they replied in the negative. I think it fair to say there were some suspicions at the time.

Baxter wasn’t at a loss he was simply trying to confirm that no body parts could have been lost in transit. He already knew that body parts had been taken from Chapman.

As I detailed in my post #155 to Jon, there appears to have been both time and opportunity for organ removal before the autopsy in the Chapman case, but one would think that, after that, more security would have been implemented for Eddowes. On the other hand, the lifting of the small intestines out of the abdomen and their placement over the right shoulder to give a clearer field indicates to me that this was preparation for further evisceration. The question remains, what scenarios allows a realistic time for these dissections.

But it’s not a case of time available to take organs from the mortuary it’s the fact that it is being stated that they were taken before the Post Mortem. We know that organ thieves would have waited until after a PM to remove organs (for obvious reasons of course) so why, in this case, where they in such a rush that they threw all caution to the wind? It doesn’t make an ounce of sense George. The organ thieves couldn’t possibly have known if a doctor had noted that the uterus was present (we are talking about an open abdomen with intestines taken out after all) If a doctor had noted the presence of the uterus either when the doctors where at the mortuary immediately after the body arrived, or when the two doctors had seen the body in situ, then it would have been discovered at the inquest that organs had been stolen. Their little sideline would have ended at the GM Mortuary.

They had no need to do this George. They could have done what they would always have done….taken them after a PM, when they would have known that no one else would be looking at the corpse. Also at night there would have been a reduced chance of being disturbed in the act.

That organ thieves jumped in and stole body parts before the PM is just a non-starter unless they were idiots of the highest order.

[Geddy2112]

That organ thieves jumped in and stole body parts before the PM is just a non-starter unless they were idiots of the highest order.

I'll ask again. Surely the stealing of organs was for profit. If so then it's a terrible business model surely. How did they know to get ready for a Ripper killing, was there any other evidence of other such thefts away from the Ripper killings? Nothing was missing from Stride or Nichols so really only two killings out of five. It appears MJK was intact organ wise apart from her heart. So my point is why did they bother? It was hardly lucrative. So for me that seems to be the whole point of this did the Ripper or thieves take the organs. Surely it has to be the killer as a thief would need to profit from their risk and it seems they did not.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

From the inquest as reported by:

The Daily Telegraph:
Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police.

Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

The Daily News:
Inspector Chandler, recalled, said that when he saw the body it did not appear to have been disturbed. He left the body in charge of the mortuary keeper till the doctor arrived.

Robert Mansell, and inmate of the workhouse, deposed that he was mortuary keeper and received the body of the deceased at 7 o'clock on Saturday morning.

The Coroner - Are you prepared to say that no one touched the body till the doctor arrived? - Not till the nurses came and undressed it. The doctor came about 2 o'clock. I may have gone away for a short time, but locked the door. Nobody touched the body except the nurses.

Mary Elizabeth Simonds said - I am a nurse at the Whitechapel Union Infirmary. On Sept. 8 I was requested to attend the mortuary with the senior nurse, whose name I think is Frances Wright. I first saw the body on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken to the shed and placed on a table.

The Times:
Robert Mann, an inmate of the Whitechapel Union, stated that he had charge of the mortuary. At 7 o'clock on Saturday morning he received the body of the deceased, and remained with it until the doctor arrived at 2 o'clock. Two nurses from the infirmary came and undressed the body. He was not in the shed when that was done.

Mary Elizabeth Simonds, nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, said on Saturday morning she and a nurse named Frances Wright were instructed to go to the mortuary. The body was lying on the ambulance. They were directed by Inspector Chandler to undress the deceased. Witness took the clothes off and placed them in a corner of the shed. They left the handkerchief round the neck of deceased. They washed the blood off the body. There was blood on the chest, as if it had run down from the throat. She found the pocket, the strings of which were not broken.
Inspector Chandler stated he did not instruct the nurses to undress and wash the body.
The Coroner's officer said it was done by order of the clerk to the guardians.

So the testimony is that the shed was locked up with the key in the hands of the police from 7am when the body arrived until 2pm when the doctor arrived. Five hours would be plenty of time for a procedure that Brown described as taking only minutes. The body was locked in the mortuary when Chandler left. Why would the body have been wheeled out into the yard, unattended or not, for the nurses to find, and then wheeled back in? Why did the nurses strip the body allegedly on instruction from Chandler, but discovered by the coroner's officer to have been by order of the clerk to the Board of Guardians? How did this clerk presume to have authority to impinge on a murder case? How was it that the nurse testified the handkerchief was left around the neck when it was found later by Phillips and Chandler to be amongst the other clothing? No big deal? It was apparently a big enough deal for the coroner to suggest that Chandler was incompetent because he didn't know how that occurred...because he wasn't there at the time. Mann testified that he was not in the shed when the nurses stripped and washed the body, so he wouldn't have known who was there. Was the clerk to the Board of Guardians supervising the nurses that he had instructed? The police officer is not mentioned in the regard. Was he inside the shed watching the body, or outside guarding the door?

There is way to much here that appears to be not quite right, IMO. YMMV.

Cheers, George

Hi George

Perhaps the reason that the body was in the yard was that from 7.30am onwards Fred Simmons, Tim Donovan and Amelia Palmer are amongst those from the neighbouring common lodging houses brought in to identify the body.

Where PC Barnes was I don`t know. I only have the attached illustration- not sure which murder this relates to. But I assume PC Barnes stayed with the body (until they started the p.m.)

edit:
It is worth noting that after the Nichols murder that "the news of the terrible tragedy spread like wild-fire amongst the inhabitants of Buck's-row and the neighbourhood, who, filled with morbid curiosity, surrounded Eagle-place, the entrance by which the body was taken into the dead-house. "

[Trevor Marriott]

I'll ask again. Surely the stealing of organs was for profit. If so then it's a terrible business model surely. How did they know to get ready for a Ripper killing, was there any other evidence of other such thefts away from the Ripper killings? Nothing was missing from Stride or Nichols so really only two killings out of five. It appears MJK was intact organ wise apart from her heart. So my point is why did they bother? It was hardly lucrative. So for me that seems to be the whole point of this did the Ripper or thieves take the organs. Surely it has to be the killer as a thief would need to profit from their risk and it seems they did not.

I should ask if the killer was harvesting organs why did he not take the organs from all the other victims.?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Geddy2112]

I should ask if the killer was harvesting organs why did he not take the organs from all the other victims.?

Thanks Trevor. Well in Nichols and Stride's cases he was clearly interrupted. In the case of Kelly it depends if you think it was a JtR killing and the heart was missing. How many murders or cases of organ theft are known in the 20 to 30 years around the turn of the century in the London area? If that can be established then surely that gives a strong indication on if there were organ thieves in operation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I should ask if the killer was harvesting organs why did he not take the organs from all the other victims.?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You keep using that loaded word ‘harvesting’ Trevor because it suits your point. We don't know why he might have taken organs or why he might not have done. So ‘harvesting’ is another assumption from you. In Bucks Row we know that Nichols wasn’t there at 3.15 but she was there and dead 25 minutes later and we know that Cross found the body. So although you don’t like explanations it’s entirely possible that the killer heard Cross’s footsteps and left the scene before he could do more. We can’t be sure if Stride was a victim or not (I’m not convinced and neither are you) so either she doesn’t count or the killer was interrupted and please don’t waste time saying that this wasn’t possible because it clearly was possible. We disagree on Kelly but even if he didn’t take organs this doesn’t mean that he didn’t take them from Chapman and Eddowes. Serial killers don’t always do exactly the same things every time (which I assume you’re aware of)

You can’t just create ‘rules’ so that you can use them to make a point. That the killer took organs from Chapman and Eddowes is proven. You are wrong as usual.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll ask again. Surely the stealing of organs was for profit. If so then it's a terrible business model surely. How did they know to get ready for a Ripper killing, was there any other evidence of other such thefts away from the Ripper killings? Nothing was missing from Stride or Nichols so really only two killings out of five. It appears MJK was intact organ wise apart from her heart. So my point is why did they bother? It was hardly lucrative. So for me that seems to be the whole point of this did the Ripper or thieves take the organs. Surely it has to be the killer as a thief would need to profit from their risk and it seems they did not.

Its another non-starter Geddy.

An organ thief’s usual MO would have had to have been, for any bodies due a Post Mortem, to take organs after it had been done. Trevor struggles with this for some reason though. Imagine the doctor pulling back the sheet to perform his PM on a body that had died from a possible heart attack or after some stomach complaint and seeing that the abdomen had been opened. I have zero medical training Geddy but even I would have spotted this. So we are left with 2 important questions which Trevor can’t answer (because there are no answers) 1. Why, in the case of Eddowes, would they suddenly adopt a new MO? What was the rush that they couldn’t have waited until evening time after the PM? 2. With the abdomen opened and the intestines removed, how could any organ thief’s have had even the slightest level of confidence that the doctors (either in Mitre Square or at the mortuary after they had followed the body there) hadn’t noticed that the uterus was in place? They couldn’t have done so they would have been taking the stupidest and most needles risk ever. Trevor won’t deal with this point because, as ever, he is defending a baseless theory at all costs.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Phillips didn't arrive till 2pm he was at Leman St Police station having dealt with the Stride murder

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Let’s look at this ‘statement of fact’ from you.

We can follow Inspector McWiliam’s actions from his report of October 27th.

He arrived at the detective department at 3.45am.

He was informed by Izzard what steps had been taken and then he wired Scotland Yard to inform them of Met about the murder - how long that took we don’t know but it could only have been a few minutes.

He then went with DS Downes first to Bishopsgate Station which can’t have been a long visit as he was heading to Mitre Square. He then went straight on to Mitre Square.

Inspector Collard was still in Mitre Square when he arrived (as was Major Smith, Superintendent Foster and some detective officers.)

Lawley and Hunt informed him about the apron and the chalk message. McWilliam ordered the message to be photographed and sent the two officers back to the Goulston Street to search the model dwellings and the local lodging houses.


So what time would you estimate that it was by this time Trevor? I’d estimate at sometime around 5am. Only a rough estimate of course.


So what did McWilliam do next?

”I then went to the Mortuary in Golden Lane, where the body had been taken by direction of Dr. Gordon-Brown and saw the piece of apron – which was found in Goulstone Street.”


And how had the piece of apron got to the mortuary?

Dr. Phillips took it there.

Brown : “I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street.”


So…

We know that Long had taken the apron to the station.

We know that Phillips got the apron from the station to the mortuary.

We know that the apron was in the mortuary when McWilliam arrived.

We can only estimate the time that McWilliam arrived at the station but I think that between 5 and 6 is reasonable.


Therefore, we know that Phillips was at the mortuary well before the PM

[Herlock Sholmes]

Question - Trevor, I believe that you’ve stated that Dr. Phillips was only at the mortuary for the Eddowes PM at around 2.30? My question is how could he have started the Stride PM at 3.00? Perhaps I’m getting times wrong?