Did The Ripper Remove Organs?

[Cody75111]

I'm guessing the reasoning behind Trevor's mortuary thieves theory is that it bolsters his giant tampon theory. Because if Jack doesn't get his hand's dirty or have any organs to transport then he has no need to cut up Catherine Eddowes' apron, so that means the (bloodied) apron in Goulston Street must have arrived there in a different way, so.....giant tampon.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting that in the inquest report in the Evening News Dr Brown said: “There was no blood on the abdomen.”

[Herlock Sholmes]

And: ”The abdomen was all exposed, the intestines drawn out to a large extent and placed over the right shoulder.”

Surely increasing the chances of him noticing the uterus had it been there?

[Herlock Sholmes]

He also said: “When the body arrived at Golden lane the clothes were more covered with blood than when I first saw them, but that was in consequence of the removal.”

Suggesting that Brown went to the mortuary following the body.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And:

“Could the parts removed be used for professional purposes?”

“They would be of no use for professional purposes.”

[Trevor Marriott]

The victim had an open abdomen. Intestines had been pulled out. Doctors had seen the body. It was known that organs were missing from Chapman (hence Brown requesting Phillips presence)

It’s not a case of what we don’t know Trevor. It’s a case of what organ thieves didn’t know. And what they couldn’t possibly have known is that by the time that they allegedly got to the body they couldn’t have known if the doctors had already seen that the uterus was still in place or not. Please read this again Trevor…..they couldn’t have known whether this was the case or not.

There was a mortuary attendant who would have opened the mortuary if he was corrupt he would have clearly have known the condition of the body and whether or not organs had been removed by the killer

If it had been the case, and they proceeded to remove the organ, then they would have ended up having to cross the Golden Lane Mortuary from their supply list. It may even have led to a tightening of security at all mortuaries.

So you’re suggesting that they took this enourmous, needless and potentially expensive risk when all that they needed to have done is to wait until the PM was done and dusted.

But the abdomen would have been closed up following the post mortem making it impossible for anyone to access the abdomen unnoticed; you clearly have never attended a post mortem.

This is simple stuff.

So simple its beyond your grasp.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

He also said: “When the body arrived at Golden lane the clothes were more covered with blood than when I first saw them, but that was in consequence of the removal.”

Suggesting that Brown went to the mortuary following the body.

and what did he find ? nothing, because they didn't make any examination of the body till later in the day

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[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
The victim had an open abdomen. Intestines had been pulled out. Doctors had seen the body. It was known that organs were missing from Chapman (hence Brown requesting Phillips presence)

It’s not a case of what we don’t know Trevor. It’s a case of what organ thieves didn’t know. And what they couldn’t possibly have known is that by the time that they allegedly got to the body they couldn’t have known if the doctors had already seen that the uterus was still in place or not. Please read this again Trevor…..they couldn’t have known whether this was the case or not.

There was a mortuary attendant who would have opened the mortuary if he was corrupt he would have clearly have known the condition of the body and whether or not organs had been removed by the killer

So a) you are stating that unskilled mortuary attendants like Robert Mann were sufficiently knowledgeable on anatomy to have been able to check for the presence of specific organs; even ones like the kidney which weren’t immediately visible in an open abdomen.

And the point that you keep deliberately ignoring, b) it wasn’t what an attendant might or might not have seen it’s what the doctors might or might not have seen. Neither the attendant or the organ thief could have known that the doctors hadn’t seen that the uterus was still there. I’m pleading with you to try and understand this point Trevor.

If it had been the case, and they proceeded to remove the organ, then they would have ended up having to cross the Golden Lane Mortuary from their supply list. It may even have led to a tightening of security at all mortuaries.

So you’re suggesting that they took this enourmous, needless and potentially expensive risk when all that they needed to have done is to wait until the PM was done and dusted.

But the abdomen would have been closed up following the post mortem making it impossible for anyone to access the abdomen unnoticed; you clearly have never attended a post mortem.

What are you talking about? After the PM the body would have been placed in a coffin with the organ thieves knowing that no one else would be looking at the body. So they would clearly have had to have taken organs after the PM.

This is simple stuff.
So simple its beyond your grasp.

You are the only person not grasping this obvious point Trevor. It’s shown by the fact that 22 others see it but only you can’t. Then again Trevor, I’m doubting whether you can’t actually understand it as I think that, as per usual, you will defend a discredited theory no matter what. The theory exists only in your head and there are very good reasons why no one agrees with you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

and what did he find ? nothing, because they didn't make any examination of the body till later in the day

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You are the absolute master of claiming that your opinions are facts. Why did he go to the mortuary then? A cup of tea? A game of cards? Or, knowing that the police would have wanted at least some information to work on as soon as possible, he might have had another look at the corpse under better conditions than in Mitre Square.

The difference between me and you is that I’m not claiming the above as a fact….only a possible. You are the one claiming as a fact that he just turned up at the mortuary but didn’t look at the body.

Big difference. One reasonable one unreasonable.

[Trevor Marriott]

You are the only person not grasping this obvious point Trevor. It’s shown by the fact that 22 others see it but only you can’t. Then again Trevor, I’m doubting whether you can’t actually understand it as I think that, as per usual, you will defend a discredited theory no matter what. The theory exists only in your head and there are very good reasons why no one agrees with you.

I think it is you need to take the blinkers off and read and digest the many replies I have made to your posts, you clearly do not know what goes on at a post mortem and following the post mortem. I do I have attended many in my time.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

You are the absolute master of claiming that your opinions are facts. Why did he go to the mortuary then? A cup of tea? A game of cards? Or, knowing that the police would have wanted at least some information to work on as soon as possible, he might have had another look at the corpse under better conditions than in Mitre Square.

The difference between me and you is that I’m not claiming the above as a fact….only a possible. You are the one claiming as a fact that he just turned up at the mortuary but didn’t look at the body.

Big difference. One reasonable one unreasonable.

He went to the mortuary at the request of Dr Brown to view the body he didn't arrive till 2pm just in time for the post mortem and as the body had been left in situ for many hours at the mortuary before the post mortem the body could easily have been tampered with during that time.

What don't you understand about that?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think it is you need to take the blinkers off and read and digest the many replies I have made to your posts, you clearly do not know what goes on at a post mortem and following the post mortem. I do I have attended many in my time.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You haven’t confronted a single point. I’m sick and tired of wasting time with you Trevor.

FACT - Organ thieves normal practice would have been to take organs AFTER any PM (should one have been due to be performed). If you can’t understand why this HAS to have been the case then you are beyond hope.

FACT - Any potential organ thieves CANNOT POSSIBLY have known if any doctor had or hadn’t noted the presence of the uterus (and we know that doctors had seen the body). This wouldn’t have been particularly difficult to see in an open abdomen with intestines removed.

FACT - As the above is patently the case then organ thieves would have been taking a huge risk in taking an organ that a doctor might previously have seen still in the abdomen.

FACT - The above risk, which could have meant that the Golden Lane mortuary would have no longer been a possible source of organs, was ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY as they had no need to take it. They could simply have taken the organs after the PM after which no one would have looked at the body and therefore eliminating the very obvious risk that every member of this Forum and the human race can see and understand except for you apparently.

[Herlock Sholmes]

22-0 still close I see

[Herlock Sholmes]

He went to the mortuary at the request of Dr Brown to view the body he didn't arrive till 2pm just in time for the post mortem and as the body had been left in situ for many hours at the mortuary before the post mortem the body could easily have been tampered with during that time.

What don't you understand about that?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

All that we have to do is follow the testimony of those that were there at the time.


Inspector Collard: “The doctors remained until the arrival of the ambulance, and saw the body placed in the conveyance. It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself.”

So we have the proof that Doctors Brown and Sequiera went to the mortuary directly after leaving Mitre Square (but, according to you they just stood around and didn’t bother looking at the body!)


Dr Brown: “Before we removed the body Dr. Phillips was sent for, as I wished him to see the wounds, he having been engaged in a case of a similar kind previously. He saw the body at the mortuary. The clothes were removed from the deceased carefully.”

Although this isn’t absolutely clear, the fact that Brown mentions the body being undressed just after he mentions Phillips seeing the body in the mortuary might imply that Phillips had been sent for an arrived soon after. And note that he doesn’t say “He saw the body at the PM.”


PC Long: “I at once searched the staircase and areas of the building, but did not find anything else. I took the apron to Commercial-road Police-station and reported to the inspector on duty.”

So Long immediately took the apron to the station.


Brown again: “I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street.”

So, are we to believe that Long immediately took the portion of apron to the station but they waited for around 11 hours for Dr Phillips to deliver it to the mortuary for them, in time for the PM? Something that was such an important piece of evidence and yet they were willing to kick their heels for 11 hours or more before they could confirm or deny that it was from the apron worn by Eddowes? Surely we can’t believe this?

This strongly suggests that Brown sent for Phillips to come to the mortuary asap (the police would have wanted to know as quickly as possible if this was the same murderer - hence Phillips) They would have also wanted to know asap if the apron piece came from Eddowes without waiting 11 hours for an answer. And as Phillips gave the apron piece to Brown at the mortuary this surely places him, with Brown and Sequiera, at the mortuary long before the inquest.


As ever I’m now preparing myself for some desperate response from you.

[Trevor Marriott]

All that we have to do is follow the testimony of those that were there at the time.

Inspector Collard: “The doctors remained until the arrival of the ambulance, and saw the body placed in the conveyance. It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself.&#8221
Brown and Sequira

So we have the proof that Doctors Brown and Sequiera went to the mortuary directly after leaving Mitre Square (but, according to you they just stood around and didn’t bother looking at the body!

Do any of them state they did a cursory examination of the body-No they didn't and probably the reason for them not was that the abdomen was badly mutilated. There is no mention of a cursory examination of the body by either Insp Collard or Dc Halse.

Dr Brown: “Before we removed the body Dr. Phillips was sent for, as I wished him to see the wounds, he having been engaged in a case of a similar kind previously. He saw the body at the mortuary. The clothes were removed from the deceased carefully.”

Although this isn’t absolutely clear, the fact that Brown mentions the body being undressed just after he mentions Phillips seeing the body in the mortuary might imply that Phillips had been sent for an arrived soon after. And note that he doesn’t say “He saw the body at the PM.”

Phillips didn't arrive till 2pm he was at Leman St Police station having dealt with the Stride murder

PC Long: “I at once searched the staircase and areas of the building, but did not find anything else. I took the apron to Commercial-road Police-station and reported to the inspector on duty.”

So Long immediately took the apron to the station.

Brown again: “I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street.”
Dr Phillips

So, are we to believe that Long immediately took the portion of apron to the station but they waited for around 11 hours for Dr Phillips to deliver it to the mortuary for them, in time for the PM? Something that was such an important piece of evidence and yet they were willing to kick their heels for 11 hours or more before they could confirm or deny that it was from the apron worn by Eddowes? Surely we can’t believe this?

Well you need to believe it because its fact they didn't click their heels they simply arranged a time to reconvene for the postmortem

This strongly suggests that Brown sent for Phillips to come to the mortuary asap (the police would have wanted to know as quickly as possible if this was the same murderer - hence Phillips) They would have also wanted to know asap if the apron piece came from Eddowes without waiting 11 hours for an answer. And as Phillips gave the apron piece to Brown at the mortuary this surely places him, with Brown and Sequiera, at the mortuary long before the inquest.

How many times do you need to be told Phillips arrived at the mortuary at 2pm just before the post mortem he was still at Leman St Police station having attended the Stride crime scene.

As ever I’m now preparing myself for some desperate response from you.

There is not one scrap of evidence to show that any of the doctors made a cursory examination of the body and found organs missing. If they had, they would have documented it. Because the most relevant issue here is at the inquest, when the topic of the missing organs came up, do you not think one of the doctors might have said, "Well, they were when we did a cursory examination of the body."

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