Ecchymosis, swollen tongues, severed windpipes and blood loss

[Observer]

I'd have rather tackled her when sober

[Jon Guy]

I'd agree, the bruises on Nichols face suggest this. I do not believe she was strangled..

Agreed. The hand over mouth and nose may explain the appearance of her nose in the mortuary photo.

[Wickerman]

The facial bruises do suggest a hand over the mouth, but if you envisage the application, if the man is standing behind her, and his right hand is over her mouth, then the bruises must be high up on the face, thumb over right cheekbone, fingertips over left cheekbone (or with left hand, vice versa)
The bruises are described as being low down on the face, ie; cheek & jawbone.

I find it hard to imagine the killer standing in front of her with his hand over her mouth and still being able to slice her throat.

The bruises on Nichols face appear to me to be here:




Which suggests to me the hand was placed thus:




Which in turn suggests she is already laid on the ground, so how did he get her there?

[lynn cates]

getting to the heart of it

Hello Jon. Your reasoning indicates WHY you are a man after my own heart.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

I find it hard to imagine the killer standing in front of her with his hand over her mouth and still being able to slice her throat.

Which suggests to me the hand was placed thus:

That`s it exactly, Jon. Nice sketch!!

Which in turn suggests she is already laid on the ground, so how did he get her there?

We were discussing earlier in the thread that the killer was simply throwing, forcing or wrestling them down, and their throats were cut whilst conscious (with left hand over mouth and nose). This being the "interference with breathing" that Dr Phillips alluded to.

[Natasha]

Hi All

Do you think it possible that the ripper stabbed at the windpipe first? I ask this because of the lack of screaming, arterial spray and also the knife marks on the spine.

[Observer]

Which in turn suggests she is already laid on the ground, so how did he get her there?

Very easily. Do you envisage Polly Nichols putting up much of a struggle Jon? Sutcliffe used all manner of little ploys to get his victims into position before he began his assault, as did Ridgeway.

[Observer]

We were discussing earlier in the thread that the killer was simply throwing, forcing or wrestling them down, and their throats were cut whilst conscious (with left hand over mouth and nose). This being the "interference with breathing" that Dr Phillips alluded to.

Precisely

[Wickerman]

Very easily. Do you envisage Polly Nichols putting up much of a struggle Jon? Sutcliffe used all manner of little ploys to get his victims into position before he began his assault, as did Ridgeway.

Hi Observer.
I agree that Nichols may have been in no position to resist physically, but nothing prevented her from screaming if she was being forced to the ground.
And yes Sutcliffe did employ a variety of ruses to get his victim into a position to strike them with the hammer, none of which entailed laying them down on their back on the open street.

I understand a female to be more compliant at the prospect of being laid down on grass than on a cobbled street.
If my memory serves...

[Abby Normal]

I think the ripper used whatever method he saw viable to render the victim quiet and defenseless as quickly as possible under the circumstances depending on how complient, easy to overpower etc. each victim was at the time including:
Strangling
Punching in the face (KO punch)
Banging the head against the ground or wall
Cutting the throat from behind while standing
Cutting the throat from in front either standing or laying

I would also imagine that not every witness was totally truthful when they told police that they did not hear anything, as they would be questioned as to why they did nothing if they heard some sort of trouble.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

It has been mentioned erroneously that Strides murder did not leave evidence of choking the victim, I think that its clear by the physical evidence that her scarf was twisted tightly, and was nicked when the cut was made, indicating that she was being choked by her own scarf at least until that cut.

There is insufficient evidence to conclude that Eddowes was, or was not, choked.

There is a very good chance that the blitzkrieg approach, catching the victim off guard by overpowering her and silencing her, was used in a few of these attacks, Pollys and Annies for sure, and likely Kates too. In fact Liz was surely caught off guard, it appears she was grabbed by the scarf from behind as she faced the street...and Mary would have been a sudden unpredictable attack...to have been relatively quiet as it apparently was.

Problem is that off guard attacks are in essence the most prevalent kind of street attacks, pouncing or grabbing when the victim is "off guard". Its hardly a factor that we need to assign to a specific killer, it would have been used by most thieves and murderers alike.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

If Liz was the victim of robbery, would it really be necessary to kill her? I suppose it would eliminate the possibility of the killer being identified but it seems an action way beyond what the situation called for and I would think there would be potential victims who were likely to have much more money on their person than Liz.

And if the motive was not robbery what was it? Remember that no argument was heard post B.S. man. That would seem to fly in the face of a lover's tiff.

An off guard attack perfectly fits the profile of a prostitute expecting to service a client but instead ends up the victim of said client.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

We were discussing earlier in the thread that the killer was simply throwing, forcing or wrestling them down, and their throats were cut whilst conscious (with left hand over mouth and nose). This being the "interference with breathing" that Dr Phillips alluded to.

Hi Jon G.

The descriptions by Dr Phillips of Chapman's facial bruises just may reflect the same grasp, or similar, that I suggested for Nichols.
The part I am not sure about is where he observes:
"...on the lower jaw, were scratches one and a half to two inches below the lobe of the ear, and going in a contrary direction to the incision in the throat."

If scratches run in a contrary direction then that suggests to me vertical scratches because the throat was cut horizontally. Scratches running vertical could then be said to run contrary.
If that is correct then this suggests to me that Annie scratched her own neck in an attempt to remove something thin and tight around her neck.
The scratches not being the result of the killers fingernails, but Annie's, who's nails were described as turgid.

As for the facial bruises, we read:
"The marks on the face were recent, especially about the chin and sides of the jaw."
This reads almost similar to the bruises described on Nichols face. Perhaps the grasp was the same.
It's a shame he did not say which was on the left of the face, and which was on the right.

This I believe is confirmed by further words:
"...I am of opinion that the person who cut the deceased's throat took hold of her by the chin, and then commenced the incision from left to right."

It is this following line that I cannot determine if Dr Phillips is referring to the neck, or the face.
"..The abrasions on the left side and on the right side were corresponding bruises.".

But, overall I think there is a reasonable cause to see the grip on Chapman being the same, or similar to that applied to Nichols.

In both cases (Nichols, Chapman), I feel the victims were subdued or even semiconscious, but not resisting.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon

The part I am not sure about is where he observes:
"...on the lower jaw, were scratches one and a half to two inches below the lobe of the ear, and going in a contrary direction to the incision in the throat.".

Similarly, we have Llewellyn on Nichols: " A small bruise was on the left side of the neck, and an abrasion on the right."

If that is correct then this suggests to me that Annie scratched her own neck in an attempt to remove something thin and tight around her neck..

How about attempting to remove her missing woolly scarf?
Had the killer pulled this tight, like Stride`s scarf?

But, overall I think there is a reasonable cause to see the grip on Chapman being the same, or similar to that applied to Nichols...

Agreed

In both cases (Nichols, Chapman), I feel the victims were subdued or even semiconscious, but not resisting.

They certainly both had similar scratch marks on the neck.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Jon



Similarly, we have Llewellyn on Nichols: " A small bruise was on the left side of the neck, and an abrasion on the right."



How about attempting to remove her missing woolly scarf?
Had the killer pulled this tight, like Stride`s scarf?



Agreed



They certainly both had similar scratch marks on the neck.

Arent you two just made for each other