The FBI Profile of Jack the Ripper & it's usefulness

[curious4]

Shelves full of ... what? Pickled fetuses? Surely not human fetuses? Does British education differ that much from Swedish?

The best,
Fisherman

It was some time ago, but yes, human and in all stages of development. Don't think they were ever used in my time, though. Just sat there on the shelves. It was a very progressive school for young ladies. That my headmistress or the previous one was JTR wouldn't have surprised me at all. We lived in terror of them!

Honestly, it's true! Tumblety would have felt quite at home.

Best wishes
C4

[Fisherman]

The science room of my old school was "decorated" with shelves full of pickled fetuses. As my school dated back to the Victorian era, I can only surmise that they were used as teaching aids! Spent most of my time trying not to look. I was a sensitive child ;-).

Best wishes,
C4

Shelves full of ... what? Pickled fetuses? Surely not human fetuses? Does British education differ that much from Swedish?

The best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

A fetus in a sealed pickle jar was found by a Thames police boat officer on, I believe, the 12 of June 1889. Itīs mentioned in Michael Gordons' Torso killer book.

The best,
Fisherman

The science room of my old school was "decorated" with shelves full of pickled fetuses. As my school dated back to the Victorian era, I can only surmise that they were used as teaching aids! Spent most of my time trying not to look. I was a sensitive child ;-).

Best wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Making it the first and last fetus-in-a-pickle-jar-floating-down-the-Thames not to rate screaming headlines.

I mean, I know I live in a red state, but about a decade ago we had screaming headlines over a fetus found in a toilet that was known for a fact to have been miscarried, and it seemed like the whole world was screaming for the head of what turned out to be a 12 year old girl for leaving it there. And she didn't even kill it.

So the idea that this little art display that was apparently the twisted stepchild of Dali and Mappelthorpe only gets a buried mention in the papers? That's weird to me. I would think that they were trying to not upset the ladyfolk, except the ladyfolk didn't typically read the papers, and that would be the first time in the history of ever that they DIDN'T want to scare the ladyfolk.

Thatīs a point, I guess. But actually, the more morbid bits and pieces that were floated down the Thames back then rarely got much of a mentioning, be it a leg, and arm or a torso. The whole business of selling papers by means of mutilated people accelerated very much with the Whitechapel murders. Before that, nothing much was written about these kinds of things.

In a sense, they could have wanted not to scare the ladyfolk, but on the whole it was more of a general stance, I think. And the more I ponder it, the more sound it seems to me, in our times when many foul deeds are set in motion by the kind of media overexploitation we afford people who should perhaps instead have been denied any space at all in tv tableaus and newspapers.

There I go, all moralizing ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Errata]

That was about it, I think. It was added on to a not very large Times article of the 13:th, mainly focusing on the ongoing Jackson investigation. Whether it was mentioned in any more papers, I donīt know.

The best,
Fisherman

Making it the first and last fetus-in-a-pickle-jar-floating-down-the-Thames not to rate screaming headlines.

I mean, I know I live in a red state, but about a decade ago we had screaming headlines over a fetus found in a toilet that was known for a fact to have been miscarried, and it seemed like the whole world was screaming for the head of what turned out to be a 12 year old girl for leaving it there. And she didn't even kill it.

So the idea that this little art display that was apparently the twisted stepchild of Dali and Mappelthorpe only gets a buried mention in the papers? That's weird to me. I would think that they were trying to not upset the ladyfolk, except the ladyfolk didn't typically read the papers, and that would be the first time in the history of ever that they DIDN'T want to scare the ladyfolk.

[Fisherman]

With respect, Christer, it is a good comparison, but obviously, we once again disagree.

Itīs nicer to agree, actually. But I canīt bring myself to do so here. Hopefully next time!

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

With respect, no, itīs not a good comparison at all. Neither of those things is something the IRA bomber feels an uncontrollable urge to do, due to deep-lying mental causes.

With respect, Christer, it is a good comparison, but obviously, we once again disagree.

[Fisherman]

Thanks fisherman...I guess a baby in a pickle jar didnt warrant more than one line in a newspaper article?

That was about it, I think. It was added on to a not very large Times article of the 13:th, mainly focusing on the ongoing Jackson investigation. Whether it was mentioned in any more papers, I donīt know.

The best,
Fisherman

[RockySullivan]

Thanks fisherman...I guess a baby in a pickle jar didnt warrant more than one line in a newspaper article?

[Fisherman]

I read Debra a's account of the Elizabeth Jackson murder on casebook. I can't find anything on the fetus in the jar? Can you point me in the right direction? I believe it was mentioned Jackson might have been "plugged". She also seemed to have her insides literally ripped apart! I could see that being the work of the ripper the way her organs where separated from her body. One thing of interest was that part of her was wrapper in a costermongers apron! She was on the street late night and there was a sighting of her with a man 24 hours before her murder. It seems this man was identified?
http://www.casebook.org/victims/jackson.html

A fetus in a sealed pickle jar was found by a Thames police boat officer on, I believe, the 12 of June 1889. Itīs mentioned in Michael Gordons' Torso killer book.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Yeah maybe...

But I have this theory. No matter how stressed you get, no matter how scattered, no matter how dominated, funny is funny. And the very few true amnesiacs in the world demonstrate this. Sense of humor doesn't change. How you get your digs in doesn't change.

If you laugh at outrageously inappropriate jokes, you always will. And knock knock jokes don't cut it. If observation humor is your thing (Like Seinfeld or Dennis Miller) then shock humor (Andrew Dice Clay, Howard Stern) is not your thing. Humor is all about worldview, which cannot be unfocused. If you see yourself as an outsider, your humor reflects that. If you see yourself as an intellectual, a frat boy, a sophisticate.. your humor shows this. It's High School psychology. The way we think when we are 15 is locked in. We may add modifiers, but nothing scrubs the initial reaction to use humor to include, exclude, punish or enlighten.

And in a creepy way, the fetus in a jar I get as funny. It's not funny, clearly, but the randomness and dichotomy of images is my sense of humor. I'm the girl who drove around town putting clown noses on every single public statue at three in the morning. And I thought that was hilarious. Statues are creepy. Clown noses are creepy. A town wakes up to statue clowns is random. It's my thing. I get the naked corpses, but I see it as a clumsy example of shock humor and therefor not funny. With a slightly darker worldview, I would think the fetus in a jar was hysterical.

If leaving a naked body exposed is a message, it's a dig. It's a joke on a fundamental level. It's all about societal norms and poking fun at people who get all undone at nakedness. There is no other message to be had. Now he could do it purposefully without it being a message, but we are talking about communication here. If it's a message, he is mocking Victorian sensibilities.

Fetus in a jar bobbing down the river is a whole different sense of humor. Frankly it's ******* crazy. The Moses parallel is pretty easy to draw, and making fun of everyone's moral sense is certainly a part of it. But this guy not only was trying to hurt anyone who saw that, he genuinely thought it was funny. This was not respectful, it was not significant, and there is no irony or parallel to draw. There was no other reason for him to do other than that he thought it was hysterical. Not because of the anticipated reaction, though that was a bonus. But because just doing it, even if nobody ever saw it (which was very possible) made him laugh really hard. I don't know why really, but it did. It was a little clever, but not a lot. It doesn't reflect his politics, his state of mind, or even his views on society. It reflects his aesthetics. Aesthetics that are not reflected in any of the Ripper murders.

Two different comedians.

Dr Kempster (who examined the body parts and fit them together) did not believe that the fetus in the jar belonged to Elizabeth Jackson, Errata. So it may be irrelevant to whatever sort of humour the torso killer posessed.

No fetus is needed, however, to allow for me to agree with your main point. I also think there are two different mental approaches on display here. Whether they are reconcilable or not hinge on whether the murders were committed to satisfy inner drives or to search ways to communicate things. In the case of the Torso killer, at least, it seems there was an obvious wish to impress messages upon the surrounding world.

All the best,
Fisherman

[RockySullivan]

I read Debra a's account of the Elizabeth Jackson murder on casebook. I can't find anything on the fetus in the jar? Can you point me in the right direction? I believe it was mentioned Jackson might have been "plugged". She also seemed to have her insides literally ripped apart! I could see that being the work of the ripper the way her organs where separated from her body. One thing of interest was that part of her was wrapper in a costermongers apron! She was on the street late night and there was a sighting of her with a man 24 hours before her murder. It seems this man was identified?

http://www.casebook.org/victims/jackson.html

[Errata]

It IS different, Errata, no doubt about that. But remember how you said yourself that it is odd how the Ripper seems to have no true focus - how he chooses different innards to go for, how he seems to have a changed taste from day to day.

Thatīs what makes me think that he may be trying to satisfy somebody else than himself. And it involves sort of a communication with the surrounding world: Look, I took a uterus. Lok now, I took a kidney! Hey, I can carve up a face.
Whatever does the trick.

In that sense, if you are not fully focused yourself on what YOU want to do, but instead on what has the wow factor, if you like, then maybe we can reconcile the two types...?

Weird? You bet. Far-fetched? Yep. But I also wonder why the focus seemingly alters, why there is seemingly a wish to display etcetera.

The best,
Fisherman

Yeah maybe...

But I have this theory. No matter how stressed you get, no matter how scattered, no matter how dominated, funny is funny. And the very few true amnesiacs in the world demonstrate this. Sense of humor doesn't change. How you get your digs in doesn't change.

If you laugh at outrageously inappropriate jokes, you always will. And knock knock jokes don't cut it. If observation humor is your thing (Like Seinfeld or Dennis Miller) then shock humor (Andrew Dice Clay, Howard Stern) is not your thing. Humor is all about worldview, which cannot be unfocused. If you see yourself as an outsider, your humor reflects that. If you see yourself as an intellectual, a frat boy, a sophisticate.. your humor shows this. It's High School psychology. The way we think when we are 15 is locked in. We may add modifiers, but nothing scrubs the initial reaction to use humor to include, exclude, punish or enlighten.

And in a creepy way, the fetus in a jar I get as funny. It's not funny, clearly, but the randomness and dichotomy of images is my sense of humor. I'm the girl who drove around town putting clown noses on every single public statue at three in the morning. And I thought that was hilarious. Statues are creepy. Clown noses are creepy. A town wakes up to statue clowns is random. It's my thing. I get the naked corpses, but I see it as a clumsy example of shock humor and therefor not funny. With a slightly darker worldview, I would think the fetus in a jar was hysterical.

If leaving a naked body exposed is a message, it's a dig. It's a joke on a fundamental level. It's all about societal norms and poking fun at people who get all undone at nakedness. There is no other message to be had. Now he could do it purposefully without it being a message, but we are talking about communication here. If it's a message, he is mocking Victorian sensibilities.

Fetus in a jar bobbing down the river is a whole different sense of humor. Frankly it's ******* crazy. The Moses parallel is pretty easy to draw, and making fun of everyone's moral sense is certainly a part of it. But this guy not only was trying to hurt anyone who saw that, he genuinely thought it was funny. This was not respectful, it was not significant, and there is no irony or parallel to draw. There was no other reason for him to do other than that he thought it was hysterical. Not because of the anticipated reaction, though that was a bonus. But because just doing it, even if nobody ever saw it (which was very possible) made him laugh really hard. I don't know why really, but it did. It was a little clever, but not a lot. It doesn't reflect his politics, his state of mind, or even his views on society. It reflects his aesthetics. Aesthetics that are not reflected in any of the Ripper murders.

Two different comedians.

[RockySullivan]

One strong point for the Ripper & Torso being the same is that Lipski was apparently written in chalk above the spot where the pinchin street torso was found. Given where pinchin st is, the kind of dump spot it was...and the slur in chalk it really makes you wonder.

[RockySullivan]

One thing I find interesting is that i believe the anus was plugged with a cloth on one torso victims? Is this correct? I wonder if this victims was before or after Kate Eddowes. The Ripper seemed to show no fear of fecal matter. I believe the cleveland torso killer also plugged the anus with a cloth on one victim. This details seems to be hard to come by so i'm not sure its accurate for the London Torso killer...perhaps an expert will know for sure. Is there any profession where the anus is plugged with cloth to prevent mess? Medical or butcher perhaps?

One interesting off topic note about the Cleveland Torso killer. On his last victim from the 50's i believe...there was a sunbather who layed out on some pieces of scrap metal everyday for weeks seen by workers in the area daily. soon after he stopped sunbathing....the workers noticed the smell coming from the pile of scrap metal and found the torso victims body under the pile.