The FBI Profile of Jack the Ripper & it's usefulness

[Fisherman]

If Stride`s killer was the Ripper, no incentive is really needed, is it ?
She`s standing alone with that darkness just behind her ... perhaps that was the only incentive he needed.

Well, going by what the shrinks tell us, his real incentive was not to kill. That was just a means to enable him to eviscerate and procure organs. So if the opportunity was there in Dutfieldīs Yard (if, that is ...), then why didnīt he take it?

If the kill was not his incentive, then why stop at the killing itself?

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Well, going by what the shrinks tell us, his real incentive was not to kill. That was just a means to enable him to eviscerate and procure organs. So if the opportunity was there in Dutfieldīs Yard (if, that is ...), then why didnīt he take it?
If the kill was not his incentive, then why stop at the killing itself?

That`s the thing, was the opportunity there to procure organs ?

So, the shrink is saying the Ripper would only kill to procure organs?
Blimey, that must be why the FBI don`t catch that many serial killers.

Surely, someone who does what the Ripper did, would not hesitate to kill just for the hell of it.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

That`s the thing, was the opportunity there to procure organs ?

No, thatīs actually not the thing - of course he could have been interrupted. But what you said was that he perhaps went for the kill, and nothing else. And that swears against what seems to be an urge within him.
Donīt get me wrong here - I am not necessarily against such a proposition.

So, the shrink is saying the Ripper would only kill to procure organs?
Blimey, that must be why the FBI don`t catch that many serial killers.

Thatīs the doctorīs order, anyway. Whether true or not, we DO have the statistics from the other murder sites, pointing at a wish to eviscerate.

Surely, someone who does what the Ripper did, would not hesitate to kill just for the hell of it.

That depends. It is not necessarily all that simple, Jon. If his drive was the eviscerations, he need not have done anything at all "for the hell of it", but instead on account of his urges. If his main drive was NOT the wish to eviscerate/procure organs, then we are dealing with something else entirely. Which, of course, we may well be!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, Dutfieldīs Yard most certainly was a very risky place to kill, given the traffic in and out of the yard door into the club and the amount of people inside the club.

We know that - but did the killer know it?

It should have been rather obvious, Fish. Even the next most risky venue, the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street, didn't have a buzzing club-house attached to it.

[Jon Guy]

HI Christer

. But what you said was that he perhaps went for the kill, and nothing else. And that swears against what seems to be an urge within him.
Donīt get me wrong here - I am not necessarily against such a proposition.

Obviously, the Ripper could control his urges, to an extent, or he would have been caught.

. Whether true or not, we DO have the statistics from the other murder sites, pointing at a wish to eviscerate.

True, but the same murder sites stats show that cutting throats was even more prevalent, and in most of the cases the killer certainly got into the act of throat cutting, judging by the deep cuts and nicks to the vertebrae.

.
If his drive was the eviscerations, he need not have done anything at all "for the hell of it", but instead on account of his urges. If his main drive was NOT the wish to eviscerate/procure organs, then we are dealing with something else entirely. Which, of course, we may well be!

That`s like saying an IRA bomber would plant a bomb in a pub, but would not throw a brick through the pub window he was passing that was full of squaddies.

[Abby Normal]

HI Christer




Obviously, the Ripper could control his urges, to an extent, or he would have been caught.



True, but the same murder sites stats show that cutting throats was even more prevalent, and in most of the cases the killer certainly got into the act of throat cutting, judging by the deep cuts and nicks to the vertebrae.



That`s like saying an IRA bomber would plant a bomb in a pub, but would not throw a brick through the pub window he was passing that was full of squaddies.

I think the most obvious explanation is that she pissed him off by wasting his time (and perhaps money)because she would not go with him where he wanted, he lost is normal calm and attacked her prematurely, and with the interruption from scwartz, thought it best to skidaddle and try again under better circs.

[Fisherman]

It should have been rather obvious, Fish. Even the next most risky venue, the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street, didn't have a buzzing club-house attached to it.

Yes, it was obvious that the club had a meeting. I just said as much, in fact. What was perhaps NOT obvious to somebody who came into the street and saw Stride standing at the entrance to the yard, was that the clubbers used a door inside the dark yard to get in and out of the club.
And if that was not obvious, then maybe the killer could not care less about the clubhouse hullaballoo - if he thought he could be offered seclusion for five minutes inside the yard, he may well have been quite content with that. It seems he opted for seclusion.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

HI Christer

Obviously, the Ripper could control his urges, to an extent, or he would have been caught.

Yep, very true. So we are not dealing with a psychotic here!

True, but the same murder sites stats show that cutting throats was even more prevalent, and in most of the cases the killer certainly got into the act of throat cutting, judging by the deep cuts and nicks to the vertebrae.

The throatcutting could well be something he felt he had to do to ensure him to be able to do what he wanted to do. And being disturbed could be what makes for this statistical skewing, since the throatcutting came before the eviscerations.

That`s like saying an IRA bomber would plant a bomb in a pub, but would not throw a brick through the pub window he was passing that was full of squaddies.

With respect, no, itīs not a good comparison at all. Neither of those things is something the IRA bomber feels an uncontrollable urge to do, due to deep-lying mental causes.
Once again, I am not saying that such causes were there. The underlying inclinations could be something totally different.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, it was obvious that the club had a meeting. I just said as much, in fact. What was perhaps NOT obvious to somebody who came into the street and saw Stride standing at the entrance to the yard, was that the clubbers used a door inside the dark yard to get in and out of the club.

Irrespective of where the door was, it would have been obvious to anyone that there were punters, very much awake, inside the club, any of whom could have exited and caught a would-be killer in the act. Besides, we know of a good few people, apart from Liz, who were in or around Dutfield's Yard within a short time of her death. Make no mistake, Dutfield's Yard was a very risky venue for a premeditated murder, let alone one of the evisceration type.

[Rosella]

They were singing loud Russian songs upstairs at the time Liz was probably killed. Morris Eagle, who was one of the singers, (and the man who'd earlier felt his way along the passage) said the windows were open and he was sure he would have heard a scream if there was one. Mrs Diemschultz was working in the kitchen and didn't hear anything. Why, if Stride was attacked and forced down on the muddy ground, would she not have at least yelled out once?

Also, I know the police were supposed to follow their beats to the inch. If however, PC Harvey maybe didn't bother to go down Church Passage into Mitre Square as he said he did (just couldn't be bothered, perhaps skimped on doing it before) then that would have given Jack a few extra minutes of uninterrupted enjoyment, with no risk of being caught.

[Amanda]

Silent victim...

Hi Rosella,

Perhaps we should consider the possibility that JtR used chloroform. It was readily available at chemist shops if you were in the 'right trade' and a few drops on a handkerchief would produce the desired effect of knocking out the victim before she had chance to scream.
Amanda

[Rosella]

That's true. I know chloroform was used to kill cats in those days. I'm not medically trained though, wouldn't there be burn marks or sores on the inside of the victims' mouths?

[Amanda]

Chloroform...

That's true. I know chloroform was used to kill cats in those days. I'm not medically trained though, wouldn't there be burn marks or sores on the inside of the victims' mouths?

Hi Rosella,
Not necessarily. If it was quick enough and administered via a handkerchief it might not leave any significant marks.

However, there would usually be a faint smell around the victim's mouth. The same smell can almost always be detected in the lungs during autopsy.

Amanda

[Magpie]

Little bit of checking confirms that the old chloroform over the nose and mouth trick would require at least 5 minutes to render someone unconscious--possibly more if it was being countered by a rush of adrenaline from the victim. The victim would not go peacefully either. Another factor is that I believe that chloroform administered this way would have time to leave tell-tale burns on the lips and nostrils, and possibly in the throat, that Rosella mentioned.

[John G]

To my mind, Dutfield's Yard was possibly the riskiest of all the murder sites. The number of people known to have been in the area around the time of the murder seems rather higher than at any other location - and I'm just thinking about Berner Street itself, to say nothing of Dutfield's Yard or the (active) Club house adjoining it.

Although I accept that this is not conventional wisdom, for me Dutfield's Yard, when all factors are considered, wasn't that riskier than either Hanbury Street or Mitre Square.

Thus, evidence suggests that much of the area was cloaked in pitch black darkness; this can be implied from the testimony of Joseph Lave- who couldn't even see the door to get back in, but had to feel along the wall of the club to orientate where he was-and, of course, Louis Diemshutz who, when he entered the passage, thought initially that he was obstructed not by a body but a heap of dirt (even though he must have been observing Stride's body from very close range).

However, it could be argued that anyone leaving the club would light up the passage once they opened the door- but this would also alert the killer and allow him to make good his escape.

In contrast, Annie Chapman may have been murdered in broad daylight- the sun rose at 5:23am that morning, several minutes prior to the Elizabeth Long sighting. Moreover, if the killer was interrupted wouldn't he have only one clear escape exist, unless he decided to scale fences or force his way through 29 Hanbury Street?

Isn't it also possible that, at the time Chapman was being killed and eviscerated there could have been a significant number of people either going to work or, like John Davis, preparing to go to work? of course, in Victorian England, for many, the working day started much earlier than is typical of the modern day.

Regarding Mitre Square, an obvious problem for the killer is that it was accessible on three sides. Therefore, in my opinion, there was a significant risk that the killer could have been caught by surprise if someone entered the square. And, of course, there was the added problem that, unlike Berner Street, this area was regularly patrolled by two police officers. In fact, PC Harvey reached the entrance of the square at 1:44pm, less than 10 minutes after the Lawende sighting.