Double event victims - Throat wounds

[GUT]

G'day Mr Lucky

Hi GUT

from Smith to Coles, excluding the torso

And only those listed on casebook or all unsolved murders in that time span?

And only those involving a knife?

[Mr Lucky]

Over what time period?

Hi GUT

from Smith to Coles, excluding the torso

[GUT]

G'day Mr Lucky

I am one of the few who thinks all the (non-torso) Whitechapel murders were committed by the same individual.

Over what time period?

[Mr Lucky]

Ive said it here before, but I believe Alice McKenzies murder fits better, based on that point and other observations, with the other 3 that you've mentioned better than Stride, Eddowes or Tabram, ....or Mylett....or Ada, or Annie, or Emma, or Elizabeth, or Francis, or the poor women who became Torsos.

The double cuts are very unusual.

For me, overall the McKenzie murder is perhaps the one which is most similar to Nichols

That in and of itself doesn't provide us with a series by one man, but it does suggest that if not by the same person then likely one who was paying attention to the published details of the other murders.

Ironically, most people have multiple killer theories, but for them this can be ignored by simply over looking the non C5-murders. The problem with this is putting the whole series of murders in to a context relative to each other.
I am one of the few who thinks all the (non-torso) Whitechapel murders were committed by the same individual.

The problem for those with a profile based context is not caused by whether a particular killing is a 'ripper killing' or 'not a ripper killing'. The problem starts with the idea of the 'interrupted ripper killings' - those of Nichols and Stride, and then demonstrating how a 'interrupted ripper killing' differs from a 'non-ripper killing'.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes you're quite correct, whether it's a double cut in the fleshy bit of the throat like Nichols and McKenzie, or even a double cut on the spine itself like Chapman and Kelly.

Ive said it here before, but I believe Alice McKenzies murder fits better, based on that point and other observations, with the other 3 that you've mentioned better than Stride, Eddowes or Tabram, ....or Mylett....or Ada, or Annie, or Emma, or Elizabeth, or Francis, or the poor women who became Torsos.

The double cuts are very unusual.

That in and of itself doesn't provide us with a series by one man, but it does suggest that if not by the same person then likely one who was paying attention to the published details of the other murders.

Cheers

[Mr Lucky]

The wound that Stride received did not require a knife with a sharp point, as it was described it was drawn across the throat. Therefore the blunt or rounded knife seen later that night was inappropriately dismissed as a possible murder weapon.

The drawn across the throat quote is from Baxter.

I think that the type of wounds made to the throat are more telling than the knife used anyway, a double cut is what separates many of the victims into their own category...its rare to see that in contemporary cases.

Yes you're quite correct, whether it's a double cut in the fleshy bit of the throat like Nichols and McKenzie, or even a double cut on the spine itself like Chapman and Kelly.

[Michael W Richards]

The wound that Stride received did not require a knife with a sharp point, as it was described it was drawn across the throat. Therefore the blunt or rounded knife seen later that night was inappropriately dismissed as a possible murder weapon.

If you suppose that the type of knife used isn't a very relevant factor in determining the similarities of the victims injuries, then you've ignored the efforts made by the physicians in that regard. Also, if you favour a local man, poor or very poor, just how many knives do you think he might have....unless of course he had a trade that required them.

I think that the type of wounds made to the throat are more telling than the knife used anyway, a double cut is what separates many of the victims into their own category...its rare to see that in contemporary cases.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'day Bridewell

As for the modus operandi / number of passes of the knife, an experienced killer is likely, in my view, to stick with what he considers to be a tried and tested technique. A novice killer would be more likely to experiment and thus seek to improve his method.

But at what point do you go from novice to experienced, 2 kills, three ???

[Mr Lucky]

A different knife does not necessarily denote a different killer. It might be the case that, on a particular occasion, the same killer happened to be in possession of a different knife.

As for the modus operandi / number of passes of the knife, an experienced killer is likely, in my view, to stick with what he considers to be a tried and tested technique. A novice killer would be more likely to experiment and thus seek to improve his method.

The thread is an attempt to look at the mechanics of the throat wounds of the victims of the double event, as described by those who examined the wounds and then gave evidence at the relevant inquest.

[Bridewell]

A different knife does not necessarily denote a different killer. It might be the case that, on a particular occasion, the same killer happened to be in possession of a different knife.

As for the modus operandi / number of passes of the knife, an experienced killer is likely, in my view, to stick with what he considers to be a tried and tested technique. A novice killer would be more likely to experiment and thus seek to improve his method.

[Mr Lucky]

I believe Phillips was referring to how unwieldy the knife in question would have been - a combination of its length and the blunt tip. Considering his opinion that Stride's throat was cut after she was on the ground and on her left side, he probably thought a more pointed and compact knife would have been more likely to have inflicted the wound.

This is what you have said in the previous post

Although the knife in question had a rounded tip, he could not say with certainty that the murder weapon was pointed, indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat instead plunged into it and then drawn.

Now you've changed from "indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat " to how unwieldy the knife was - "a combination of its length and the blunt tip". For some reason 'simply drawn' has changed to 'unwieldy' ?

If the wound was a slash drawn across her throat, inflicted whilst Stride was on the floor then the length of the weapon is totally irrelevant - her throat could have been slashed with a 5 foot long blade, in which case the damage would have been inflicted with just the end of the blade near the tip. A stabbing action is the only mechanism for inflicting the injury on Stride which could be affected by how long the blade was, considering her position relative to the wall, and that the wound was started on her left.

If the wound was just a slash then all the discussion at the inquest about the length of the instrument and which particular type of point it had would not have happened, as there would be nothing about the wound that could possibly give any information about those factors.

If the wound was a slash then the only judgement they could make is how sharp the blade was.

Fact is, few knives are not pointed. The apparently described baker's knife found by Coram would be the exception. As a hunter I know that a cut can be started with the blade and then as its drawn the point helps with penetration after the cut is started. This is what I believe Brown was describing in Eddowes throat wound.

Ok, what is it specifically that Brown has said that causes you to believe this

By mentioning "injuries" as plural, these physicians were delineating each organ affected ( carotid artery, larynx, windpipe...etc.) but not necessarily done with different passes of the knife.

I have not suggested that the word injuries means that each vessel in the throat was cut individually.

What I have pointed out is that Philips is making a distinction between the "incision" and the "injuries". This is the section of text again

"Such a knife could have produced the incision and injuries to the neck of the deceased; but it was not such a weapon as I would have chosen to inflict injuries in this particular place; and if my opinion as regards the position of the body is correct, the knife in question would become an improbable instrument as having caused the incision."

The incision is the stabbing action, the injuries are from the cutting action as blade was pulled through the soft tissue.

"not such a weapon as I would have chosen to inflict injuries" - not what he would have chosen, but the blade was quite capable of it (it's sharp enough)

"an improbable instrument as having caused the incision." - it is improbable that the blade caused the incision (it's too long)

[Hunter]

I believe Phillips was referring to how unwieldy the knife in question would have been - a combination of its length and the blunt tip. Considering his opinion that Stride's throat was cut after she was on the ground and on her left side, he probably thought a more pointed and compact knife would have been more likely to have inflicted the wound.

Fact is, few knives are not pointed. The apparently described baker's knife found by Coram would be the exception. As a hunter I know that a cut can be started with the blade and then as its drawn the point helps with penetration after the cut is started. This is what I believe Brown was describing in Eddowes throat wound. By mentioning "injuries" as plural, these physicians were delineating each organ affected ( carotid artery, larynx, windpipe...etc.) but not necessarily done with different passes of the knife.

[Mr Lucky]

Phillips was essentially asked about this when giving evidence on the knife presented to Constable Drage and found by Coram. Although the knife in question had a rounded tip, he could not say with certainty that the murder weapon was pointed, indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat instead plunged into it and then drawn.

There appear to be some confusion regarding the Coram knife and the double event victims throat wounds - in this case Stride. There are more than factors in play here regarding Coram's Knife.

Firstly - The tip of the knife - generally, a knife can have two types of tip to the blade;- sharp point or round point - however, there are other types of blade which have no tip;- a meat cleaver, some machetes etc
Secondly - The length of the knife
Thirdly - The wound itself, its location in the neck, and it's length
Fourthly - The position of the body when the wound was inflicted

What Philips stated about the Coram knife was

Such a knife could have produced the incision and injuries to the neck of the deceased; but it was not such a weapon as I would have chosen to inflict injuries in this particular place; and if my opinion as regards the position of the body is correct, the knife in question would become an improbable instrument as having caused the incision.

So the Coram knife COULD have inflicted the injuries on stride (but was improbable).

Interesting to note, Philips' use of the phrase "incision and injuries" as if the two are not a result of just one action.

Next;-

The CORONER. - Could you give us any idea of the position of the victim? Witness. - I have come to the conclusion that the deceased was seized by the shoulders, placed on the ground, and that the perpetrator of the deed was on her right side when he inflicted the cut. I am of the opinion that the cut was made from the left to right side of the deceased, and therefore arises the unlikelihood of such a long knife having inflicted the wound described in the neck, taking into account the position of the incision.

So, here it seems that it's the length of Coram's knife that is the problem.

The CORONER. - Was there anything in the cut that showed the incision first made was done with a pointed knife? Witness. - No.

However, admittedly this line can be interpreted to demonstrate that the knife was only used to slash Strides throat, but then that doesn't explain why Coram's knife was too long to do the job.

I suspect that the distinction that Baxter is referring to here is really that between sharp-pointed knife and round-pointed knife - like Coram's knife. This is demonstrated when Blackwell was recalled (next witness) and stated;-

With respect to the knife which was found, I can confirm Dr. Phillips in his opinion that, although it might possibly have inflicted the injury, it is an extremely unlikely instrument to have been used. It appears to me that a murderer, in using a round pointed instrument, would severely handicap himself, as he would only be able to use it in one particular way. I am told that slaughterers only use sharp pointed knives. It is not a suggestion of mine that a slaughterer did the deed.

Question - If the wound is a slash and not a stab , why would Blackwell state that the murderer in using a round pointed instrument would "severely handicap himself"

Elsewhere in the press, this same section was recorded as;-

(Blackwell) I am told that slaughterers always use a sharp-pointed instrument.
The Coroner: No one has suggested that this crime was committed by a slaughterer. - Witness: I simply intended to point out the inconvenience that might arise from using a blunt-pointed weapon.

Question - If the wound was a slash and not a stab, why would a blunt-pointed weapon cause inconvenience ?

[Hunter]

This is more like my view of Strides throat wound, one which began as a stab and then became a cut only when the killer pulled the blade through the soft tissues.

Phillips was essentially asked about this when giving evidence on the knife presented to Constable Drage and found by Coram. Although the knife in question had a rounded tip, he could not say with certainty that the murder weapon was pointed, indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat instead plunged into it and then drawn.

[curious]

That is precisely it, he is describing the damage, as he found it.
Unfortunately, this has traditionally led to the belief that there was only one passing of the knife.



I did compare Blackwell's description of Stride's wound to that given by Dr Brown of Eddowes. Very similar in length, but not so deep.

Hi, Jon,
It's been quite awhile since I looked at the cuts for similarities, but isn't there something about them both maybe "going up" or the exit or end being closer to the ear lobe than where the cut started. ie, they are not straight and level?

curious