Double event victims - Throat wounds

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Ok, I get what you mean - Brown seems keen to avoid any speculation indicated with his statement - " sharp instrument like a knife" , so he may only want to describe the actual damage and not guess at the number of separate incisions.

That is precisely it, he is describing the damage, as he found it.
Unfortunately, this has traditionally led to the belief that there was only one passing of the knife.

This is more like my view of Strides throat wound, one which began as a stab and then became a cut only when the killer pulled the blade through the soft tissues....

I did compare Blackwell's description of Stride's wound to that given by Dr Brown of Eddowes. Very similar in length, but not so deep.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Wickerman,

For what its worth, I see Dr Brown describing a single wound which has two separate causes, though he does not commit himself to enumerating the number of cuts employed.

Ok, I get what you mean - Brown seems keen to avoid any speculation indicated with his statement - " sharp instrument like a knife" , so he may only want to describe the actual damage and not guess at the number of separate incisions.

Numbers 1 & 2 are one passage of the knife.

Yes, I agree.

Numbers 3-6 are a separate stab of the knife, which was then dragged across the throat to taper off as described in 7-9.

This is more like my view of Strides throat wound, one which began as a stab and then became a cut only when the killer pulled the blade through the soft tissues. Conversely in the Eddowes case, the blade had cut into the cartilage of the spine (6) - which suggest to me that the blades edge was facing the spine - the killer was restricted, effectively unable to cut further and so could only retract the blade through the same wound and so this incision remained a stab.

At least two uses of the knife.

Yes , I agree.

[Mr Lucky]

It's difficult to reconstruct, Pete. But I would say #8 reinforces #11 with respect to the knife being pointed and the fine hole opening in the artery. Not that the artery was cut through, but stabbed.

Hi Scott,

Thanks, I agree about reconstructions - in fact I'd suggest all the descriptions of the throat wounds for all the victims are difficult to understand. In this case I also think the diminishing size of the wound between the sheath (7) and the vein (8) also indicates a stab.

Do you think that all the damage done to the throat is from one use or two distinct and separate uses of the knife?

[Damaso Marte]

The two passes of the knife theory seems consistent to me. It would also fit nicely with Chapman and Nichols having two throat wounds.

[Wickerman]

For what its worth, I see Dr Brown describing a single wound which has two separate causes, though he does not commit himself to enumerating the number of cuts employed.

In keeping with your list, I suggest the following.

1) The throat was cut across to the extent of about six or seven inches.
2) A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear.

One superficial cut, not too deep across the throat for about 6-7 inches.


3) The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side.
4) The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed.
5) The larynx was severed below the vocal chord.
6) All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages.

The deep cut (to the bone) described above is only on the left side of the neck, and tapers off across the center (including the larynx).


7) The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.
8) The carotid artery had a fine hole opening,
9) the internal jugular vein was opened about an inch and a half -- not divided.

These wounds on the right side are only slight when compared to those on the left side.

Numbers 1 & 2 are one passage of the knife.
Numbers 3-6 are a separate stab of the knife, which was then dragged across the throat to taper off as described in 7-9.
At least two uses of the knife.

[Scott Nelson]

It's difficult to reconstruct, Pete. But I would say #8 reinforces #11 with respect to the knife being pointed and the fine hole opening in the artery. Not that the artery was cut through, but stabbed.

[Mr Lucky]

Elsewhere, Wickerman and I have discussed the differences in the killers method of attack on the throats of the various Whitechapel murders, in particular Nichols, Chapman and the victims of the double event, and even some non-C5 victims such as McKenzie and Coles.

The popular image of Jack the Ripper - the traditional figure, is of a killer who slashed his victims throats. Different models have him attacking the victims from the front or from behind. However the slashing action is the same in either case. This appears to be just a product of the obsession with profiling, putting the Whitechapel victims into ‘non-ripper’ and ‘ripper’ type categories.

Let's consider Dr Brown’s examination of Eddowes throat wound;-

The throat was cut across to the extent of about six or seven inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear.

The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side. The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed. The larynx was severed below the vocal chord. All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages. The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.

The carotid artery had a fine hole opening, the internal jugular vein was opened about an inch and a half -- not divided. The blood vessels contained clot. All these injuries were performed by a sharp instrument like a knife, and pointed.

If we break down what Brown said into approximately sentence length sections

1) The throat was cut across to the extent of about six or seven inches.
2) A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear.
3) The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side.
4) The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed.
5) The larynx was severed below the vocal chord.
6) All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages.
7) The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.
8) The carotid artery had a fine hole opening,
9) the internal jugular vein was opened about an inch and a half -- not divided.
10) The blood vessels contained clot.
11) All these injuries were performed by a sharp instrument like a knife, and pointed.

Then test two different proposals to see which fits the best ;-

Hypothesis 1

The C5 murderer, the traditional 'Jack the Ripper' type figure of popular Ripperology, usually kills by slashing the throats of his victims. He then performed the mutilations (if any) after death.

Testing Hypothesis 1

No. 1-5 - Don’t initially note any problems with the first 5
No. 6 - "All the deep structures were severed to the bone" totally incompatible with No. 2 "superficial cut"
No. 7-9 - fitting No. 7,8 and 9 with the deep slash type wound model starts to be problematic. In particular No.9, how had “the inch and a half” opening which was had “not divided” the internal jugular occurred , when considered in combination with the following;-

a) that the spinal cartilage was marked by the blade (No. 6)
b) minimal damage done to the carotid artery and sheath (No. 7 + 8)
c) the length of the cut “six or seven inches” long (No. 1)
d) the cut ended below the right ear (No. 2)
No. 10 - the blood had clotted in the vessels on the right side, but if the flesh had been cut through from surface inwards then the pressure should have forced the blood capable of clotting out of the wound (as it did on the left side of the throat)
No. 11 - Brown knows the instrument is definitely pointed, but it's only “like a knife” if the wound had only been caused by the edge of a blade, how would Brown know it was pointed?

Hypothesis 2

The Whitechapel murderer*, usually kills by stabbing the victims, in this case in the throat. He then performed the mutilations (if any) after death (in this case including a superficial throat cut.)

* = W10, exclude Pinchin St torso

Testing Hypothesis 2

No. 1-11 - Don’t initially note any problems with this explanation fitting with any of the information.
No. 3-9 - Assuming a knife that tapers toward the point, then that would explain the descending damage done internally to the neck from left to right;- the large muscle and both vessels on the left completely severed , as was the larynx (in the middle of the throat) , then the large opening in the internal jugular and then the minimal damage done to the carotid on the right.
No. 11 - Only a stab wound would enable Brown to observe that the instrument was pointed

Are these accurate assessments ?
Does anyone want to attempt another interpretation ?