Double event victims - Throat wounds

[Mr Lucky]

I fail to see how a man like Lechmere (I trust we are both speaking of him) could have avoided a trial. I canīt see that happening. He was fit to stand trial, and after that, it is up to the legal system of the country to ensure that a fair trial could be provided.

All the best,
Fisherman

You are basing this on your interpretation of the events on Buck's-row and your understanding of bringing the case to trial.

[Mr Lucky]

The trial will happen, it may need a different venue, extraordinary restrictions may also be imposed, but a trial will take place.

"Fair trial" is perhaps too general a term, if there are specific concerns those concerns should be identified in order for them to be addressed.

The trial cannot happen, and there is no remedy to this situation. The 'specific concerns' I am referring too were altered by statute during the twentieth century.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;303930]The trial will happen, it may need a different venue, extraordinary restrictions may also be imposed, but a trial will take place.

But he would never get convicted if you and some of the others here were sitting on the jury that's for sure. For to secure a conviction would mean the end of life as you know it and you wouldn't want that would you ?

[Fisherman]

Fish,

Everyone, even Jack the Ripper, must have a fair trial.
if he can't have a fair trial, the trial doesn't happen.

I fail to see how a man like Lechmere (I trust we are both speaking of him) could have avoided a trial. I canīt see that happening. He was fit to stand trial, and after that, it is up to the legal system of the country to ensure that a fair trial could be provided.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Fish,

Everyone, even Jack the Ripper, must have a fair trial.
if he can't have a fair trial, the trial doesn't happen.

The trial will happen, it may need a different venue, extraordinary restrictions may also be imposed, but a trial will take place.

"Fair trial" is perhaps too general a term, if there are specific concerns those concerns should be identified in order for them to be addressed.

[Mr Lucky]

If I am not much mistaken, this is the second time I pick up on this detail in a post of yours.
Would you care to expand on it?

The best,
Fisherman

Fish,

Everyone, even Jack the Ripper, must have a fair trial.
if he can't have a fair trial, the trial doesn't happen.

[Fisherman]

eventually the killer had immunity from prosecution (Oops)

If I am not much mistaken, this is the second time I pick up on this detail in a post of yours.
Would you care to expand on it?

The best,
Fisherman

[Mr Lucky]

I believe Blackwells comments refer to his belief that the scarf was being pulled and twisted while the cut was made, being validated by the nicking of the scarf while twisted.

Plus..if you stick with traditional Ripper beliefs, then the fact that she may have been cut "while falling" should factor into your opinion of her inclusion into the Canonical Group. Most assume the Ripper victims were lying on the ground when first cut.

Cheers

Hi Michael

I don't stick with any traditional ripper beliefs at all - the original Leather Apron was a man called Nathan Rueben - Cross killed Nichols after he sent Paul to find a policeman - the killer stabbed his victims to death - one man killed all except the Pinchin street torso - eventually the killer had immunity from prosecution (Oops) - the explanation that fits best with the evidence is the one most likely to be true - Jack the Ripper's (the c5 killer) behaviour is motivated by external events rather than his internal drives - the killer is leaving clues not to help us but the exact opposite etc , etc

Generally speaking, I don't agree with anyone about anything ripperological.

[Mr Lucky]

Thats of intrest to me I have at times pondered that method, attacking from behind jabbing the knife in and drawing forward with one hand on the mouth controling the head its a good clean way to do it! but what of the cuts on the bone /cartalige is he finishing the cutting there from the front say when they are prone.

Hi PC

Well It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who think's that the 'Zorro in a top-hat slashing throats' standard model of how the killer operates is way off the mark and that the wounds need a bit more consideration than they are usually given

In the model you're suggesting I think the question of whether the knife marked the spine or not would just depend on which direction the blade faced, however it would be likely that the knife handle would fit into the hand comfortably only one way (not all knife handles fit like this but most with only one sharp edge do). As the wounds were from the left on both victims I think this makes the throat being stabbed while the killer was behind her unlikely.

If the killer is stabbing into the side of the victims throat while he was standing at her side, the knife could be held the same way on both occasion but the noted differences in whether the spine was marked/not marked could be dependent purely on which direction the killer stood - either he was facing her or they both faced the same direction.

[Michael W Richards]

Here's a curious little bit of Dr Blackwell testimony, When asked by a juror " Can you say whether the throat was cut before or after the deceased fell to the ground? ", he replies;-



questions, questions...

"pulled the deceased backward, cutting her throat in that way"

If we stick with the ripperological explanation - that the killer is slashing the victims throats, this doesn't make any sense at all. - how does pulling her backward result in her throat getting cut ?

If she had been stabbed below the left ear, the blade facing away from spine and then she was pulled backwards by the killer , this action would result in the throat being cut.

An explanation that fits the evidence is more likely to be true.....

I believe Blackwells comments refer to his belief that the scarf was being pulled and twisted while the cut was made, being validated by the nicking of the scarf while twisted.

Plus..if you stick with traditional Ripper beliefs, then the fact that she may have been cut "while falling" should factor into your opinion of her inclusion into the Canonical Group. Most assume the Ripper victims were lying on the ground when first cut.

Cheers

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Here's a curious little bit of Dr Blackwell testimony, When asked by a juror " Can you say whether the throat was cut before or after the deceased fell to the ground? ", he replies;-



questions, questions...

"pulled the deceased backward, cutting her throat in that way"

If we stick with the ripperological explanation - that the killer is slashing the victims throats, this doesn't make any sense at all. - how does pulling her backward result in her throat getting cut ?

If she had been stabbed below the left ear, the blade facing away from spine and then she was pulled backwards by the killer , this action would result in the throat being cut.

An explanation that fits the evidence is more likely to be true.....

Thats of intrest to me I have at times pondered that method, attacking from behind jabbing the knife in and drawing forward with one hand on the mouth controling the head its a good clean way to do it! but what of the cuts on the bone /cartalige is he finishing the cutting there from the front say when they are prone.

[Mr Lucky]

Here's a curious little bit of Dr Blackwell testimony, When asked by a juror " Can you say whether the throat was cut before or after the deceased fell to the ground? ", he replies;-

I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up.

questions, questions...

"pulled the deceased backward, cutting her throat in that way"

If we stick with the ripperological explanation - that the killer is slashing the victims throats, this doesn't make any sense at all. - how does pulling her backward result in her throat getting cut ?

If she had been stabbed below the left ear, the blade facing away from spine and then she was pulled backwards by the killer , this action would result in the throat being cut.

An explanation that fits the evidence is more likely to be true.....

[Mr Lucky]

Which would translate into an opinion that any and all references made by any senior investigative officer about someone incarcerated or institutionalized for the Ripper crimes were in fact lies.

?. I have given no such indication that you can 'translate' my opinions in such a way. I'm actually trying to discuss the throat wounds on the victims!

It would mean that skilled and unskilled murder techniques were used by the same person, that his knowledge of internal structures was sometimes present and sometimes not, that he was not consummately absorbed by the post mortem mutilations he performed and that he didn't seek out only the opportunities which would allow time for those cuts, and that this single killer was responsible for every unsolved East End murder in 1888.

That's right, that's the evidence, - what's needed is an explanation that fits with what's actually happened, and that's what I'm suggesting we do with the throat wounds of the double event victims.

For me, a Canonical Group that consists of Polly, Annie, Kate and possibly Alice is reasonable. The similarities are obvious, and the extraneous noise made by murders that are not like these 4 is silenced,... so a probable killer profile could be legitimately constructed.

A 'Canonical group' means exactly what in the terms of assigning culpability to someone?
what does putting the victims into various groups actually do anyway...?

....Perhaps there is something to be learnt from this kind of grouping together of the victims - let's try again with something else, what about how many hats they owned - Coles had two bonnets, so that means she was killed by a totally different killer other than the 'One hat killer' of Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes, What about Kelly - famously she didn't own her own bonnet, but on the night she was killed they found the remains of one in her fire!! - ripperological 'proof' that there's some kind of conspiracy.....a copy cat killer, knowingly passing his work off as that of the "One hat killer"!!! - the reality is putting the murders into different groups explains nothing of significance.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi GUT

The 'Whitechapel murder file' is the name given to the 11 unsolved murders of Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, McKenzie, Mylett, Coles and the Pinchin street torso. I'm only considering the first ten on this list.

Not all these are knife murders, technically Smith was a 'blunt instrument' (personally I think it was a blunt knife) and Mylett was strangled/garrotted

Which would translate into an opinion that any and all references made by any senior investigative officer about someone incarcerated or institutionalized for the Ripper crimes were in fact lies.

It would mean that skilled and unskilled murder techniques were used by the same person, that his knowledge of internal structures was sometimes present and sometimes not, that he was not consummately absorbed by the post mortem mutilations he performed and that he didn't seek out only the opportunities which would allow time for those cuts, and that this single killer was responsible for every unsolved East End murder in 1888.

Good luck with that.

For me, a Canonical Group that consists of Polly, Annie, Kate and possibly Alice is reasonable. The similarities are obvious, and the extraneous noise made by murders that are not like these 4 is silenced,... so a probable killer profile could be legitimately constructed.

Cheers

[Mr Lucky]

And only those listed on casebook or all unsolved murders in that time span?

And only those involving a knife?

Hi GUT

The 'Whitechapel murder file' is the name given to the 11 unsolved murders of Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, McKenzie, Mylett, Coles and the Pinchin street torso. I'm only considering the first ten on this list.

Not all these are knife murders, technically Smith was a 'blunt instrument' (personally I think it was a blunt knife) and Mylett was strangled/garrotted