Double event victims - Throat wounds

[Mr Lucky]

And that's what I am trying to find out, what it is, maybe you are onto something I simply cannot find it though.

Ok, The evidence at the Nichols inquest between the three men Mizen, Cross and Paul doesn't quite corroborate, but in my interpretation of events almost all the information given at the inquest is true (killer changes just two minor details) - effectively the information has become encoded in the form of a latent ambiguity and I believe this can be simply unravelled by dealing with the information in the correct way.

Send me a PM if you're interested.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry.

"Sarah Brown's murder really has no bearing on the double-event."

Absolutely. And THAT is the whole point. A woman was killed with a knife and her death was unrelated to Mitre sq.

What are the chances? Treble event?

We know that Sarah Brown was not killed by the Ripper, but by her own husband. If anything, she debunks the multiple-killer theory, not buttress it because it's even more amazing that three separate yet similar attacks happen around the same time. Therefore she's out of the equation and my original point stands - what are the chances that two women have their throats cut by an unknown perpetrator less than an hour apart?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Harry.

"Sarah Brown's murder really has no bearing on the double-event."

Absolutely. And THAT is the whole point. A woman was killed with a knife and her death was unrelated to Mitre sq.

What are the chances? Treble event?

Cheers.
LC

I have been saying this for ages that the cutting of the throat was an accepted method of killing in Victorian times and on that basis and that basis alone all of the Whitechapel murders cannot be linked to one killer.

Stride is a clear cut example (no pun intended)

[lynn cates]

point

Hello Harry.

"Sarah Brown's murder really has no bearing on the double-event."

Absolutely. And THAT is the whole point. A woman was killed with a knife and her death was unrelated to Mitre sq.

What are the chances? Treble event?

Cheers.
LC

[Harry D]

If you consider Harry that coincidentally that a third woman was killed by a cut throat on the same night as the Double Event, you might view coincidence differently.

Sarah Brown's murder really has no bearing on the double-event.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not one for coinky dinks. Liz Stride has her throat sliced less than an hour before another local woman suffers the same fate (and worse), and we're supposed to believe the two are completely unrelated? I mean what are the chances, really?

If you consider Harry that coincidentally that a third woman was killed by a cut throat on the same night as the Double Event, you might view coincidence differently.

Cheers Harry

[Harry D]

I'm not one for coinky dinks. Liz Stride has her throat sliced less than an hour before another local woman suffers the same fate (and worse), and we're supposed to believe the two are completely unrelated? I mean what are the chances, really?

[Michael W Richards]

Pollys examination report; "On the left side of the neck, about 1 in. below the jaw, there was an incision about 4 in. in length, and ran from a point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, and commencing about 1 in. in front of it, was a circular incision, which terminated at a point about 3 in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertebrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision was about 8 in. in length. the cuts must have been caused by a long-bladed knife, moderately sharp, and used with great violence."

Annies; "He should say that the instrument used at the throat and abdomen was the same. It must have been a very sharp knife with a thin narrow blade, and must have been at least 6 in. to 8 in. in length, probably longer. He should say that the injuries could not have been inflicted by a bayonet or a sword bayonet. They could have been done by such an instrument as a medical man used for post-mortem purposes, but the ordinary surgical cases might not contain such an instrument. Those used by the slaughtermen, well ground down, might have caused them. He thought the knives used by those in the leather trade would not be long enough in the blade. There were indications of anatomical knowledge."

Liz's; "There was a clear-cut incision on the neck. It was six inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, one half inch in over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath."

Kates; " The throat was cut across to the extent of about six or seven inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear.
The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side. The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed. The larynx was severed below the vocal chord. All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages. The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened".

Marys; "The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis. The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage."

In none of these descriptions a "stab" is mentioned, although "cut" or "incision" is mentioned in 4 of the five.

If you need verification that the language is the issue here, simply review Marthas overview, stabs are certainly mentioned there.

Cheers

[GUT]

Hi GUT

OK, and you're not the only one who was a bit cranky. I am obviously interested in your POV and I do appreciate your input. Btw, I believe there is a bit more to the situation at the inquest than I have let on so far.

And that's what I am trying to find out, what it is, maybe you are onto something I simply cannot find it though.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Wickerman

Actually I think that happened with Eddowes, as the edge of the blade was against the spine and the knife basically was just pulled back through the same entry wound - the later shallower cut made the wound look similar to the previous ones

Generally the initial stab under the ear turns into a rip type wound as the blade is then pulled through the softer tissues of the throat

I assume by your responses that you mean to say that the women you mention had the point of the knife inserted at the beginning of the cut, rather than having the blade slice across the throat, as was the case in the Stride murder.

Although I don't recall any physician using the term "stab" for Polly, or Annie, or Liz. Or Kate.

Cheers

[Mr Lucky]

This occurred with Tabram but none of the others that we know of.

Hi Wickerman

Actually I think that happened with Eddowes, as the edge of the blade was against the spine and the knife basically was just pulled back through the same entry wound - the later shallower cut made the wound look similar to the previous ones

Generally the initial stab under the ear turns into a rip type wound as the blade is then pulled through the softer tissues of the throat

[c.d.]

Let me point out the obvious...no matter how you slice it (pun intended) these women all ended up dead.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

What I mean by "stab" - this is concerning the entry wound only - the incision starts with the tip or point of the knife blade, not the edge

Ah, I appreciate you clarifying this because I think of a stab as a thrusting action, in and out of the same wound, leaving an elliptical hole the same shape as the blade.
This occurred with Tabram but none of the others that we know of.

The word "Incision";- the most accurately meaning is probably "cut" - not "slice" or to be fair not "stab" either

I also view a 'slice' as meaning a cut produced by the edge of a knife, though I acknowledge that this may be confusing. As an example of a true 'slice' we only need look at the two wounds on Eddowes cheeks, leaving a flap of skin - this was by a slice of the knife.

With the exception of the above, the wounds to their throats I view as 'sliced' as opposed to 'stabbed'.

We need to consider the other information , all those other words from the PM that aren't in bold.

Interesting.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Michael

Im interested to know what Canonical victims you believe showed evidence that their throats were "stabbed".

Nichols - definitely,
Chapman - possibly the first wound inflicted, before the cut was continued all the way around her neck
Double event - definitely
Kelly - No

Since you specifically note the Double Event victims I am curious as to where you may have read or heard that Elizabeth Stride had anything but a single slice wound.

I have never heard the wound on strides neck being described as a "single slice" anywhere. What do you mean by "slice" - the same action as slicing a cake - the blade is almost parallel to the surface being cut and the initial cutting action is by the edge and not the point of the knife ?

What I mean by "stab" - this is concerning the entry wound only - the incision starts with the tip or point of the knife blade, not the edge

From the PM:"There was a clear-cut incision on the neck. It was six inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, one half inch in over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean and deviated a little downwards. The arteries and other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through. The cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about two inches below the right angle of the jaw. The deep vessels on that side were uninjured. From this is was evident that the hemorrhage was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery."

The word "Incision";- the most accurately meaning is probably "cut" - not "slice" or to be fair not "stab" either

We need to consider the other information , all those other words from the PM that aren't in bold.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi GUT

OK, and you're not the only one who was a bit cranky. I am obviously interested in your POV and I do appreciate your input. Btw, I believe there is a bit more to the situation at the inquest than I have let on so far.