39 wounds

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all


I am not sure whether this has been highlighted before, but I had thought about the wounds inflicted on Tabram, and how they could be linked to the latter Ripper murders.

I apologize in advance if this has already been thought up/discussed/written in a book etc... but I thought I'd ask anyway...


A total of 39 wounds inflicted on Tabram, 38 with one weapon and just 1 with a different weapon...

Could the wounds she received be connected to the 39 lashes that Jesus was alleged to have received prior to his crucifixion?

There is no evidence how many lashes the Romans gave Jesus, because the concept of a maximum of 39 lashes was strictly a Jewish law and derived from the belief that 40 lashes would kill and so only a maximum of 39 lashes were permitted; i.e. the most amount of lashes to give inflict pain and punishment, without killing the recipient.
The Romans would have been unlikely to have followed a Jewish system of punishment, but that's beside the point of course.

What if, the person who butchered Tabram was replicating the lashes inflicted on Jesus based on the idea of a Jewish maximum of 39 lashes?

There's also a chance that the killer miscounted, and had intended 39 cuts with one weapon and then finally gave what he believed to be the 40th cut, with a longer, larger and sharper weapon, to ensure death and represent the 40th cut being the one that kills.
This could explain why the killer used a 2nd blade and inflicted just 1 wound with it.

Now, as a standalone concept, I can appreciate that my hypothesis is a little thin.

However, let's add in the GSG, Stride and Eddowes...

IMO, the GSG could be perceived as 1 of 2 meanings...

Written by a non-Jew with antisemitic views, and trying to give something authentic for the Jews to be blamed for (the psychology of "if you don't stop crying, I will give you something to cry about") and pushing an agenda by trying to frame and/or highlight their guilt for having Christ killed.

OR

Written by a Jew who wanted to show the world that he would give the people something genuine to blame them for; because they wrongly blamed the Jews for the murder of Christ.

These points are taken in context with the 39 cuts attributed to the murder of Tabram.

We then have Stride; a non-Jewish Yiddish-speaking Scandinavian prostitute, who had her throat cut outside a socially extremist club run by Jews with a controversial approach; the mainstream Jews weren't too keen on what the club stood for...and an alleged shout of "Lipski"

We then have Eddowes, who worked for the Jews and whose piece of bloodied apron was placed underneath the GSG, to directly connect the murder of Eddowes to the GSG.

We also have the Pinchin Street torso; with reports of the word "Lipski" being written chalked on the wall.

We also have the murder committed by Lipski in 1887. It's important to remember that despite an 11th-hour confession from his cell on the eve of his execution, Lipski was STILL believed to have been innocent of his crime, and many people were opposed to his execution in the belief he was wrongly punished.

In some people's eyes, Lipski was punished for his sins in being a Jew, and was given a great injustice.

A bit like some people who believe that Jesus was punished for his sins..in going against the Jews.


We have Eddowes murder location with direct religious connections.

We have MJK, a Catholic girl; ergo, a Christian.


There are many circumstantial coincidences of course, but what if Tabram was sacrificed for her sins?

Did her killer count his cuts as lashes inflicted onto a sinner, someone who sold her body to men, including Jews?


We also have the letter "Moab and Midian"

Long story short...the peoples of Moab and Midian were originally rivals, but subsequently allied, to go against the Israelites in a bid to quell their power.

The women of Moab and Midian (as referenced in the letter) were said to have "seduced" the men of Isreal by luring them into sin and sexual immorality.


Whoever wrote the Moab and Midian was either an authentic Jew who resented having been drawn into sin...

OR

He was a non-Jew, who was trying to frame the Jews and set them up as the ones responsible for the Ripper killings.


The miscarriage of justice with the Lipski hanging
The sacrificing of Tabram; perhaps seen as a woman who corrupted the killer with her sexual immorality.
The slaying of a non-Jew outside a Jewish extremist club, in the road next to the location of the Lipski murder the year before.
The butchering of Eddowes in Mitre Square, with its well-documented religious connections; and the Mitre being the headdress of a Catholic bishop
The butchering of a Catholic girl in her room.
The Pinchin Street torso with the Lipski message on the wall
The man seen talking with Chapman outside 29 Hanbury Street


Was Tabram the first victim and the key to the mystery, as a potential underlying motive for the murders?


If there was a religious motive, it would appear that the killer was either...

A Jew who disliked Christians, (in particular Catholics) and who was sick of his fellow Jewish people being blamed for everything; from the hanging of Lispki to the murder of Christ, and he wanted to give the Jews something authentic to be blamed for (the GSG) by murdering the women he saw as the ones who corrupted Israel and made him feel dirty with their immoral sexuality and sins, starting with the lashing of Tabram, either sticking strictly to the Jewish law of 39 cuts, or miscounting and inflicting what he thought was the 40th cut with a different weapon.

OR

A Non-Jew who blamed the Jews for the sins of the world, including the murder of Christ. He then set about dressing up as a Jew, dying his hair and moustache and wanting the Jews to be punished for their sins, by using Christian prostitutes as sacrifices, choosing to kill Stride next to a Jewish club located in the road next to Batty Street of Lipski fame. He was determined to punish the Jews for their sins and the best way to try and mimic being one himself and setting them up (the GSG)


Either way, I believe that IF Tabram was a Ripper victim; she may be the clue to the idea that the killer had a warped religious motivation and was the testing specimen for his future kills.




As an aside, I do find it interesting that Israel Schwartz was alleged to have been the key witness to the attack on Stride, but he has never been definitively identified outside of the murder of Stride, he came across as a man playing a part, he used the name "Israel" which is the name you would directly being a victim of Moab and Midian (who seduced the Israelists) and that nobody saw or heard anything he claimed to have seen and heard, including the term "Lipski" which may just be the tantalizing clue staring us right in the face.

Was Israel Schwartz the author of Moab and Midian, the killer of Tabram, and potentially the man we label as Jack the Ripper?

I also have started a thread on a new person of interest I identified a while ago, named Marks Silverman, who was a Jewish walking stick maker (similar to the one given to Abberline), who had a Chandler's shop at 6 Fashion Street... mentioned specifically by Eddowes after she claimed to have known who the killer was. Marks Silverman went into the Jewish sick asylum and was classed as a lunatic who could not be treated. As highlighted in my Marks Silverman thread, his surname can be linked to Dutfields yard where Stride was murdered.


Was Marks Silverman the same man as Israel Schwartz?



Lots to ponder

Thoughts please?


RD

[Sam Flynn]

Now, as a standalone concept, I can appreciate that my hypothesis is a little thin.

However, let's add in the GSG, Stride and Eddowes...

I thought the opposite, RD. Piling on the GSG, Eddowes, Schwartz, Moab/Midian etc etc turned an intriguing idea into a stretch too far for me. Sometimes less is more

[The Rookie Detective]

I thought the opposite, RD. Piling on the GSG, Eddowes, Schwartz, Moab/Midian etc etc turned an intriguing idea into a stretch too far for me. Sometimes less is more

That's a very fair comment

On reflection, my point on Tabram still holds up I guess, and so maybe you're right.

I added in the additional points to try and see if I could link together individual pieces of factual data, to make a connected thread through the series of murders.



RD

[Sam Flynn]

The problem with the Whitechapel Murders is that we can find Jewish connections just about everywhere we look, but that probably says more about the demographics than the perpetrator(s) of the crimes. However, taking Tabram's case on an individual basis, the "39 wounds/39 lashes" idea is certainly interesting.

[c.d.]

Could the wounds she received be connected to the 39 lashes that Jesus was alleged to have received prior to his crucifixion?

Of course they could. But the fact is they could be connected to just about any damn thing you can think of.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

The problem with the Whitechapel Murders is that we can find Jewish connections just about everywhere we look, but that probably says more about the demographics than the murderers themselves. However, taking Tabram's case on an individual basis, the "39 wounds/39 lashes" idea is certainly interesting.

On reflection, I am inclined (partially) to agree with you.

The idea came to me after recently watching the UK tour of Jesus Christ Superstar haha!

When Jesus was being lashed, it made me think of Tabram's case and whether her killer had intended 39 cuts as a means of punishment and highlighted her need to be sacrificed for her sins.
The belief that Jesus received 39 lashes is a longstanding one, although the bible itself doesn't specify 39 lashes. The number 39 comes solely from the Jewish law and belief of inflicting the maximum amount of pain and punishment, but without killing the recipient, ergo, the belief that 40 lashes would be enough to kill.

To exceed 39 lashes was not permitted by the Jewish system, as lashing was intended as a form of punishment and not meant to kill.
(In reality, Jesus would have likely received a random number of lashes, as the Romans would not have been told what to do by the Jews who pushed for his demise)

But because Tabram was killed, I wondered whether her killer miscounted by 1 number, and intended 39 cuts and 1 final fatal stab to make 40.

That said, exceeding 39 would have broken Jewish law, and so he may have intended 39 wounds all along.


I believe that the answer rests somewhere in the above statements.


RD

[c.d.]

Let me be clear here, R.D. Not putting you down and no disrespect intended. Your thinking outside the box is refreshing and should be encouraged but as I have said before the answer to such open ended questions is always going to be yes. If they encourage thinking in new ways that's great.

c.d.

[drstrange169]

Interesting factoid. Looking up 39 I found:

Mathematical meanings,

39 is the product of 3 x 13, both of which are primes.

It is a perfect totient number. *39 is the sum of five consecutive primes (3 + 5 + 7 + 11 + 13) and also is the product of the first and the last of those consecutive primes. Among small semiprimes only three other integers (10, 155, and 371) share this attribute.


Biblical meanings,

The name Samson, in the King James translation, is recorded 39 times in only two books (Judges and Hebrews). Interestingly, the name Gideon is also written 39 times but only in the book of Judges.

A modern Bible usually contains 66 books, 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament.

Pilate committed suicide in 39 A.D.

In the Old Testament, the Biblical chapters of 2Samuel 3, 13, 23, Nehemiah 10 and Jeremiah 49 contain 39 verses in the King James Bible.

In the New Testament, the chapters Matthew 15, 23, Luke 5, Romans 8 and Hebrews 10 have 39 verses in the KJV.

Angel Number 39 is directly related to your divine life purpose.

The curse of the law of sin and death is set forth in Gen. 2:16, 17. There are thirty-nine words in that law. The curse of the law of sin and death is also set forth in Psalms chapter 53. Psalms 14 and 53 are almost identically worded. The two chapters are thirty-nine chapters apart.


This a good one,

The curse of 39, also referred to as triakontenneaphobia, is the fear of the number 39. In some parts of Afghanistan, the number is considered to be cursed or a badge of shame as it is purportedly linked with prostitution.

[The Rookie Detective]

Interesting factoid. Looking up 39 I found:

Mathematical meanings,

39 is the product of 3 x 13, both of which are primes.

It is a perfect totient number. *39 is the sum of five consecutive primes (3 + 5 + 7 + 11 + 13) and also is the product of the first and the last of those consecutive primes. Among small semiprimes only three other integers (10, 155, and 371) share this attribute.


Biblical meanings,

The name Samson, in the King James translation, is recorded 39 times in only two books (Judges and Hebrews). Interestingly, the name Gideon is also written 39 times but only in the book of Judges.

A modern Bible usually contains 66 books, 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament.

Pilate committed suicide in 39 A.D.

In the Old Testament, the Biblical chapters of 2Samuel 3, 13, 23, Nehemiah 10 and Jeremiah 49 contain 39 verses in the King James Bible.

In the New Testament, the chapters Matthew 15, 23, Luke 5, Romans 8 and Hebrews 10 have 39 verses in the KJV.

Angel Number 39 is directly related to your divine life purpose.

The curse of the law of sin and death is set forth in Gen. 2:16, 17. There are thirty-nine words in that law. The curse of the law of sin and death is also set forth in Psalms chapter 53. Psalms 14 and 53 are almost identically worded. The two chapters are thirty-nine chapters apart.


This a good one,

The curse of 39, also referred to as triakontenneaphobia, is the fear of the number 39. In some parts of Afghanistan, the number is considered to be cursed or a badge of shame as it is purportedly linked with prostitution.

Some very interesting references for the number 39

I can understand how the idea that Tabram was stabbed 39 times, with 2 weapons for a specific reason; ergo, linked to the lashings alleged to have been inflicted on Jesus, will receive a lot of skepticism, and I can accept that because it goes against the grain so to speak.

As you have demonstrated, the number 39 can be attributed to a countless number of ideas and concepts. I can't argue with that of course.

All I would say though, is that my idea could explain why 2 weapons were used to cut Tabram. If there was just one weapon, then the idea of 39 cuts representing 39 lashes becomes rather redundant. However, the fact is that 1 of her cuts was inflicted by a 2nd weapon.


That means either 1 man with 2 blades, or 2 men with a blade each.

My idea is that it was still 1 man, but that he deliberately chose to inflict just 1 cut with the bigger, longer, sharper blade, as a way of highlighting the final cut being the one that kills. This then runs parallel with the Jewish belief of inflicting no more than 39 cuts.

And then when we add...

The Moab and Midian letter, allegedly written by a man who bore a hatred for the women of Moab and Midian, who in the bible seduced the Israelites, aka the Jews.

The Pinchin Street torso with the word Lipski" chalked on the wall. The Pinchin Street torso case was considered as a potential Ripper murder in some publications at the time.

The murder of Stride outside a Jewish club, that bore extremist views and was disliked by the more mainstream Jews.

The murder committed by Lipski, who was very likely innocent, and therefore was potentially sacrificed for nothing.

The alleged shouting of the word "Lipski!" was stated by the theatrically dressed ghost witness Israel Schwartz who gave an account that nobody else saw or heard.

The murder of Eddowes, who worked for the Jews, and had a piece of bloodied apron placed under the GSG, that talks about the Jews being the men who won't be blamed for nothing. That is relevant because; in a religious sense, the Jews were the ones who pushed for Christ to be punished and receive lashes.

That then goes full circle back to Tabram.

All I am suggesting is that the cuts inflicted on Tabram, were deliberately carried out by a man with a message to give.


RD

[drstrange169]

First off, let me say I'm a sucker for theories, I don't believe any, but I do love reading them. New ideas are always welcome.

What first jumps out at me, is you are describing the type of killer in a Thomas Harris novel rather than a Victorian East End frequenter.

Mrs Nichols and Mary Kelly seem missing from the hypothesis.

Concerning the "Moab and Midian" letter, we don't know that it actually existed. Coming as it does from Bulling it is of highly questionable provenance and of course, nobody has ever seen a copy of it.

I'd say Lipski was very likely guilty, rather than innocent and I'm pretty sure it was Mrs Stride who did work for Jewish people on the Sabbath.

My scepticism aside, please don't stop pursuing your theory, I'd love to read more.

[The Rookie Detective]

First off, let me say I'm a sucker for theories, I don't believe any, but I do love reading them. New ideas are always welcome.

What first jumps out at me, is you are describing the type of killer in a Thomas Harris novel rather than a Victorian East End frequenter.

Mrs Nichols and Mary Kelly seem missing from the hypothesis.

Concerning the "Moab and Midian" letter, we don't know that it actually existed. Coming as it does from Bulling it is of highly questionable provenance and of course, nobody has ever seen a copy of it.

I'd say Lipski was very likely guilty, rather than innocent and I'm pretty sure it was Mrs Stride who did work for Jewish people on the Sabbath.

My scepticism aside, please don't stop pursuing your theory, I'd love to read more.

You make very valid points and they're very much welcome


Stride and Eddowes both worked for the Jewish community, Eddowes performing domestic work in Brick Lane and casual prostitution and Stride some cleaning work, also for the Jewish Community.

So we have 2 women who...

Worked as prostitutes
Worked for the Jewish community
Were both at lodging houses on Flower & Dean Street less than 24 hours before they were killed, Eddowes for breakfast at No.55 (Cooneys) and Stride at No.32
Similar age
Were murdered on the same night
Both women form the "double event" from an alleged Ripper correspondence.

The entire concept of the "Double Event" plus the reference to a Kidney; which was taken from Eddowes, and the subsequent link to Lusk and the WVC, stems from Ripper correspondences and forms another link between the women.

Then we have the bloodied apron from Eddowes placed under the GSG, whose author was either an antisemitic; or a Jew being ironic.

There's also the fact that shortly before she was murdered, Eddowes gave her name as Mary Kelly, which just so happened to be the name of the next Ripper victim in MJK

When all these elements are combined, they make the sum of all parts.

There is of course another way to look at this...


For example...

If Stride wasn't a Ripper victim, then it alters the picture somewhat; because it eradicates the double event, it makes the kidney reference a bizarre coincidence, and then rather ironically makes all my other points listed even more coincidental!

In other words, dismissing the links that are already there; makes the explanation of those similarities even harder to explain.

Regarding Lipski, whether he was guilty or innocent is beside the point. It's the perception of the person who believes he's been wrongly hanged that matters.
Lipski is linked to Batty Street
Lipski is linked to Stride via Schwartz alone
Lipski is linked to the Pinchin Street torso

He may have indeed been guilty, but if the killer believed he was innocent, it really didn't matter what the truth was.


I accept your point about Moab and Midian, but the jury is still out on Bulling. It is certainly odd that he transcribed what he claimed to be from an original letter, and it begs the question, why didn't he just send the original?
On that basis, I can't argue with your logic on Moab and Midian.

If the letter did exist, then the reference to Moab and Midian is a clear indication of the author's hatred for the women who seduced the Israelites (Jews) If the Moab and Midian letter was authentic then it proves the author was either a Jew or someone who wanted to frame the Jews for the murders.
Either way it makes the Ripper a religiously motivated Psychopath and Sociopath

In terms of Mary Kelly, she was Catholic and had the same name as given by the previous victim Eddowes.
In religious terms, and regarding the killing of Christ, it could be said that the Catholics believe in a more widespread cause for Jesus being sacrificed, ergo, for the sins of others. But at the same time, it could also be stated that as Christians, they blame the Jews for instigating proceedings by demanding Christ the dissenter be punished.
On that basis, Kelly may have been attacked for being an Irish Catholic, who had a very different view on the role of Jews concerning Christ's demise.


By placing the bloodied apron that we know was from Eddowes directly under the GSG, it forms a definite link between the statement made in the text.

Now, some could argue it was a coincidence that the Ripper dropped the apron under the GSG, but that would make it become even more of an unlikely coincidence.

It is more likely it was deliberate, and because of that, it forms yet another religious link.


I just want to say that I completely respect and accept your views, because they are ALL valid. We may not agree on some of my points, and that is to be expected.


I have always been clear that I prefer feedback; because without any reciprocation, my hypothesis has no traction or means to develop or progress. By you taking the time to respond in this thread, means more to me than someone who doesn't bother to engage.


Kindest regards


RD

[richardnunweek]

My 39 theory goes back much longer, far to many times.. its beyond coincidence . even recent suspect Lechmere can be associated

[The Rookie Detective]

My 39 theory goes back much longer, far to many times.. its beyond coincidence . even recent suspect Lechmere can be associated

The reason I love your post; is that I had no idea that there was another who had considered the 39 hypothesis.

While it deflates any claim I may have had to be the originator of the 39 hypothesis, it also highlights that I am not alone in my viewpoint and vindicates my efforts in this particular thread.

At the very least, it's worth a discussion to flush out ideas between us.

I must admit that I am doubtful of Lechmere's involvement, and that is coming from an Ex-Lechmere believer.

Typically, Nichols and Chapman are the victims that I have been unable to directly connect to the/your/our/my 39 hypothesis.

Perhaps Lechmere's association could be the link I am missing.

For me, the murders happened in 2 parts, as there was a real shift after the Chapman murder, an explosion of interest in the press, including the involvement of the WVC and their persistent attempts to get rewards, the focus put onto Lusk, the start of the Ripper correspondences, the first use of the name Jack the Ripper, the GSG etc...

We have the murders of Nichols and Chapman, that feel at odds with the rest of the series.

However, the murder of Tabram, from which the entire 39 hypothesis stems, then brings Nichols and Chapman into the fold.

For me, Tabram was his first, the start of his chapter, Nichols murder was an impulsive kill that he didn't finish and was nearly caught.
The location of Chapman's murder was planned away from the street, but he had only just met her and lured her to No.29.
But crucially, the arrival of Cadoshe catches him off-guard and he is nearly caught for the 2nd time.

We then have a time gap and then by the time he gets to Stride, he has begun with a new focused strategy.

An End Game

I believe he wasn't disturbed when he killed Stride, and that he knew he was taking a risk. His new strategy involves spending time with his victims before he kills them, luring them into a false sense of security before he strikes.

Stride was deliberately quick, but he took enjoyment from surprising her, by nearly taking her head off with just ONE cut.
Eddowes was his primary target to fulfill the double event, and he planned to meet Eddowes before killing her.
Kelly was also another victim who he befriended before killing her.


But i digress...

So, would you care to disclose how Lechmere can be associated with the 39 hypotheis?



Regards

RD

[richardnunweek]

Hi RD,
Letchmere had his 39th Birthday 5th October 1888.. Tabram 39 years old stabbed 39 times., Nichols killed 31st of the 8th month , Stride/Eddowes 30th of the 9th month, The date of that murder, and Millers court murder39 . Kelly lives at 26, Dorset street Room 13 Millers court added together =39 , and more...........

[Michael W Richards]

The fact that 38 stabs hit several major organs but did not immediately kill Martha might have necessitated the final "bayonet" thrust, but..for my money, that last bayonet stab was likely someone elses weapon, maybe used by the killer, or maybe supplied to him if a buddy came looking for him. This night had soldiers wearing short swords, bayonets, knives, military uniforms....the Bank Holidays allowed soldiers to carry arms openly. Again, for me, I dont see it being likely that he stabs 38 times then suddenly he remembers he has a larger blade.... which he then uses once. I think he used a penknife because thats all he had on him. But someone had a bayonet style weapon with them, and wanted this attack to be over.