Did The Killer Remove Organs?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve started this thread because the discussion was moving another thread off-topic.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

I have to express more than a little surprise Trevor. In many discussions on this case Dr. Biggs is your ‘go to’ medical man and yet when we find him agreeing with Dr. Brown’s estimation (and disagreeing with your position) he appears to become surplus to requirements. Perhaps another valid question might be:

When is Dr. Biggs opinion worth listening to and when isn’t it?

A final point to make of course is that the killer had longer than 5 minutes available to him anyway. He could have had 8 or 9 minutes.

Trevor’s response:

And the killer could have had no time at all other than to murder and mutilate given we don't know what time the couple left to go into the square. You are forgetting the testimony of Dr Phillips who stated that with regards to Chapmans murder he could not have done all that was done to her in under 15 mins and that was in relation to a uterus only add a kidney to that with Eddowes

As I have previously stated the doctors both past and present all gave their opinions whether they could have carried out those removals in the same crime scene situation is unchartered territory the same goes for Dr Browns expert so in reality opinions are clearly divided

That opinions are divided. This is the point that I made when you made the positive statement that he couldn’t have had sufficient time Trevor. Drs. Brown, Sequeira and Phillips (on Chapman) were all giving their own estimations and all differed. Modern day experts apparently disagree too (Prosecutor and Nick Warren)

Dr. Brown however should be commended for at least trying to get a more accurate estimation but we can’t know how accurately the conditions were recreated in terms of lighting for example. Maybe the expert didn’t carry out his task in poor lighting but they arrived at a time of 3½ minutes and we know that the killer could easily have had 8 or 9 minutes in Mitre Square.And, of course, as we don’t know who the killer was we don’t know his level of anatomical knowledge or skill as these points are also disputed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In cases where organs were stolen they would have occurred after the post mortem so we have to ask why, in the case of the ripper murders, would they have occurred before the post mortem? What need was there to have done this before the PM had taken place? Why the hurry? The case was about as high profile as it gets so anyone wanting to steal organs would have been aware of doctors and police showing up for various reasons at random times including to bring people in to ID the body. Why the unnecessary risk when they could easily have waited until after the PM had been completed in the late afternoon/evening when all was quiet? After dark being the ideal time I’d have thought.

We would also have to ask about another unnecessary risk. Anyone working at the mortuary would have been aware that Doctors had been examining the corpse that morning but wouldn’t have known about any of the doctor’s findings (clearly someone like Mann, as an example, wouldn’t have been involved or consulted in any examination) so how could they have known whether the doctors had discovered that there were no organs missing? Would they really have risked the closing off this avenue of profit by having their actions revealed when a doctor at the PM noticed an organ missing that was there a few hours ago?

We also have information that a Constable was put on guard at Golden Lane mortuary when Eddowes body was there (I can’t locate his collar number though it was mentioned somewhere)

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It seems that it was generally accepted at the time that it was the murderer who had excised Chapman's uterus and Eddowes' uterus and kidney.

After Kelly's uterus and kidneys were excised in circumstances in which no-one but the murderer could have done it, how could that have left any room for doubt?

[Fiver]

We also need to look at testimony from the Eddowes Inquest.

Mr. Crawford: I understand that you found certain portions of the body removed? - Yes. The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found.
[Coroner] Have you any opinion as to what position the woman was in when the wounds were inflicted? - In my opinion the woman must have been lying down. The way in which the kidney was cut out showed that it was done by somebody who knew what he was about.
[Coroner] Does the nature of the wounds lead you to any conclusion as to the instrument that was used? - It must have been a sharp-pointed knife, and I should say at least 6 in. long.
[Coroner] Would you consider that the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill? - He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.
[Coroner] Would the parts removed be of any use for professional purposes? - None whatever.

[GBinOz]

That opinions are divided. This is the point that I made when you made the positive statement that he couldn’t have had sufficient time Trevor. Drs. Brown, Sequeira and Phillips (on Chapman) were all giving their own estimations and all differed. Modern day experts apparently disagree too (Prosecutor and Nick Warren)

Dr. Brown however should be commended for at least trying to get a more accurate estimation but we can’t know how accurately the conditions were recreated in terms of lighting for example. Maybe the expert didn’t carry out his task in poor lighting but they arrived at a time of 3½ minutes and we know that the killer could easily have had 8 or 9 minutes in Mitre Square.And, of course, as we don’t know who the killer was we don’t know his level of anatomical knowledge or skill as these points are also disputed.

Hi Herlock,

Morning Advertiser 5 Oct:
How long would the whole thing take to do?-It could be done in five minutes. I may say that a man who is accustomed to removing the womb was asked to take one out, and it took him three minutes.

The time for the expert was to extract the womb only. As you point out, it is a shame that we don't have more detail, such as was the experiment conducted using an autopsy bench with good lighting or crouching over a body on the ground in the dark. One could assume that the experiment was conducted on a cadaver, so there would be no fresh blood flow. If in his haste he damaged the bladder, as Trevor suggested, then the comparison becomes questionable I should think. On the other hand, if the uterus and kidney were removed at the mortuary, it indicates how little time would be required to achieve the purpose.

By the way, the name of the former member was Prosector - meaning "a person who makes dissections for anatomic demonstrations". He was a surgeon and a teacher.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Morning Advertiser 5 Oct:
How long would the whole thing take to do?-It could be done in five minutes. I may say that a man who is accustomed to removing the womb was asked to take one out, and it took him three minutes.

The time for the expert was to extract the womb only. As you point out, it is a shame that we don't have more detail, such as was the experiment conducted using an autopsy bench with good lighting or crouching over a body on the ground in the dark. One could assume that the experiment was conducted on a cadaver, so there would be no fresh blood flow. If in his haste he damaged the bladder, as Trevor suggested, then the comparison becomes questionable I should think.

By the way, the name of the former member was Prosector - meaning "a person who makes dissections for anatomic demonstrations". He was a surgeon and a teacher.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

Thanks for the quote. Yes it’s certainly questionable if he didn’t include the removal of the kidney too which I find really strange. Why only the womb? Even the best that an experiment like that could have achieved would have had to have included the kidney. It’s a pity that we don’t have more info on this experiment. As ever we’re reliant on the Press.

Thanks for the name correction too. It’s strange but I can’t recall being involved in any discussion threads with him. He last visited in 2021.

[GBinOz]

I
We also have information that a Constable was put on guard at Golden Lane mortuary when Eddowes body was there (I can’t locate his collar number though it was mentioned somewhere)

Hi Herlock,

Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police.

Mr. George Baxter Phillips: Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

It appears that leaving a Constable on guard may not always ensure an unbroken chain of custody of the body. Nichols body was also left unattended outside the mortuary while Mann went to find the keys.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police.

Mr. George Baxter Phillips: Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

It appears that leaving a Constable on guard may not always ensure an unbroken chain of custody of the body. Nichols body was also left unattended outside the mortuary while Mann went to find the keys.

Cheers, George

Thanks George,

For some reason I was of the impression that that info wasn’t in a report of the trial so I didn’t look there. You’d have thought that it would have been imprinted on my brain with the amount of Chapman-related discussion recently.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Thanks for the name correction too. It’s strange but I can’t recall being involved in any discussion threads with him. He last visited in 2021.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/catherine-eddowes/795569-organ-removal-warning-graphic-photos?p=796074#post796074

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

I've been doing a little research that I thought I'd share with you. Firstly, the definition of an autopsy:
What is done in an autopsy?
Definitions 2.1. 1. Complete autopsy is defined to include a detailed external examination of the entire body, and an internal examination to include the removal and dissection of all thoraco-abdominal and neck organs, opening the head with the removal and examination of the brain.

So there is a preliminary external examination followed by the internal examination. Looking at the record of the autopsies of the C5, it can be seen that they are divided into:
1. Observations made at the crime scene
2. Preliminary examination of the external injuries
3. Internal examination.

http://www.pathguy.com/jack.html

Looking at the observations at the crime scene there is no mention of organs being missing, or their possible absence even being considered or investigated.

I was looking for a thread to bump to avoid the derailing of the "Mitre Square to Goulston Street" thread, but you have saved me that trouble (thank you). While I was looking I came across this old thread:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/doctors-and-coroners/11185-eddowes-gut-cut/page7

It contained some very interesting discussion on the actual cuts made to Eddowes abdomen. There was some consensus that many of the cuts were made inside out, as would be the case for gutting fish. This is contrary to the surgical method of applying pressure from the outside of the flesh to make the cut, and would tend to suggest that this part of the procedure may have been done by a non medical person. I have cleaned many fish and this is the method that I have used, and the same on the rabbits that I have shot. I'm not sure of the method used by butchers, bearing in mind that their carcasses are hanging, and their technique may need to be modified for a subject lying on the ground.

I find myself quite neutral on this subject, with points to be awarded to both sides. I find the opinions on times by Prosector and Trevor's video experts to be persuasive, and I value my daughter's opinion, bearing in mind that her hands-on experience was dedicated to the prospect that the subject was intended to survive. I also suspect that there was some behind the scenes discussion between Baxter and Phillips which led to the questions that were asked about when the organs went missing, and why they should have been taken. I also suspect that there would have been some reluctance on the part of the medicos to subscribe to the theory that the organs had escaped custody on their watch.

On the other hand, while there does appear to be some evidence of breaks in the chain of custody of the bodies in two cases, that does not in itself provide evidence that organ removal took place during those breaks. There is also the doctor's testimony that there was no professional use to be had from the organs removed, although there was apparently a black market for organs.

IMO much revolves around the time required, the nature of the cuts and the possibility that the assumed times available were inaccurate. I hesitate to include the following as it does smack of press sensationalism, but it may be an example of Watkins taking a tea break instead of his 1:30 round, the fact of which he would be unlikely to admit, and it would require the indulgence of Morris.

East London Advertiser 6 Oct:
The murder in Mitre-square is similar in its brutality to that of Annie Chapman. The victim was an unfortunate woman, so poor that robbery could not possibly be suggested as a motive. The scene of the crime - Mitre-square, Aldgate - is an essentially business place during the day, but during the night it may be described as secluded. The arrangements of the City Police at this point - and, perhaps, owing to the late murders - are said to be very precise, and the circuit of the beat would not extend over 11 minutes. On this occasion the officer on duty was Police-constable Watkins. At half-past 1 o'clock Watkins handed a can of tea to the watchman at Messrs. Kearley and Tongue's, tea merchants, named George James Morris, a naval pensioner, telling him to make it hot in 10 minutes' time, when he would then be round again. Having made the circuit of the square, Watkins left, paraded his beat, and returned at a quarter to 2.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I've been doing a little research that I thought I'd share with you. Firstly, the definition of an autopsy:
What is done in an autopsy?
Definitions 2.1. 1. Complete autopsy is defined to include a detailed external examination of the entire body, and an internal examination to include the removal and dissection of all thoraco-abdominal and neck organs, opening the head with the removal and examination of the brain.

So there is a preliminary external examination followed by the internal examination. Looking at the record of the autopsies of the C5, it can be seen that they are divided into:
1. Observations made at the crime scene
2. Preliminary examination of the external injuries
3. Internal examination.

http://www.pathguy.com/jack.html

Looking at the observations at the crime scene there is no mention of organs being missing, or their possible absence even being considered or investigated.

I was looking for a thread to bump to avoid the derailing of the "Mitre Square to Goulston Street" thread, but you have saved me that trouble (thank you). While I was looking I came across this old thread:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/doctors-and-coroners/11185-eddowes-gut-cut/page7

It contained some very interesting discussion on the actual cuts made to Eddowes abdomen. There was some consensus that many of the cuts were made inside out, as would be the case for gutting fish. This is contrary to the surgical method of applying pressure from the outside of the flesh to make the cut, and would tend to suggest that this part of the procedure may have been done by a non medical person. I have cleaned many fish and this is the method that I have used, and the same on the rabbits that I have shot. I'm not sure of the method used by butchers, bearing in mind that their carcasses are hanging, and their technique may need to be modified for a subject lying on the ground.

I find myself quite neutral on this subject, with points to be awarded to both sides. I find the opinions on times by Prosector and Trevor's video experts to be persuasive, and I value my daughter's opinion, bearing in mind that her hands-on experience was dedicated to the prospect that the subject was intended to survive. I also suspect that there was some behind the scenes discussion between Baxter and Phillips which led to the questions that were asked about when the organs went missing, and why they should have been taken. I also suspect that there would have been some reluctance on the part of the medicos to subscribe to the theory that the organs had escaped custody on their watch.

On the other hand, while there does appear to be some evidence of breaks in the chain of custody of the bodies in two cases, that does not in itself provide evidence that organ removal took place during those breaks. There is also the doctor's testimony that there was no professional use to be had from the organs removed, although there was apparently a black market for organs.

IMO much revolves around the time required, the nature of the cuts and the possibility that the assumed times available were inaccurate. I hesitate to include the following as it does smack of press sensationalism, but it may be an example of Watkins taking a tea break instead of his 1:30 round, the fact of which he would be unlikely to admit, and it would require the indulgence of Morris.

East London Advertiser 6 Oct:
The murder in Mitre-square is similar in its brutality to that of Annie Chapman. The victim was an unfortunate woman, so poor that robbery could not possibly be suggested as a motive. The scene of the crime - Mitre-square, Aldgate - is an essentially business place during the day, but during the night it may be described as secluded. The arrangements of the City Police at this point - and, perhaps, owing to the late murders - are said to be very precise, and the circuit of the beat would not extend over 11 minutes. On this occasion the officer on duty was Police-constable Watkins. At half-past 1 o'clock Watkins handed a can of tea to the watchman at Messrs. Kearley and Tongue's, tea merchants, named George James Morris, a naval pensioner, telling him to make it hot in 10 minutes' time, when he would then be round again. Having made the circuit of the square, Watkins left, paraded his beat, and returned at a quarter to 2.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Thanks for that information. I tend to try and view the situation from the potential organ thief’s perspective so I can’t avoid the question: “why would they have taken organs before the post mortem had taken place?” My apologies for re-stating the obvious George but post PM = abdomen already opened, no risk of interruptions by doctors or police officers, no possibility of interference with the body being noticed and the ripper victims were certainly more high profile and so subject to greater attention than the average corpse.

That said, we can’t avoid that doubt has been voiced about the time required and by people who are undoubtedly experts on the subject. I think it’s worth pointing out though the potential difference between the estimations of Brown and Sequeira and the actual time that the killer could have had available to him. Phillips estimation in regard to Chapman is further ‘out’ of course (though I could say that Phillips had form for being wrong but I won’t go there) So I tend to come down strongly on the ‘killer must have had sufficient time’ side.

The quote is an interesting one and I can’t help imagining Watkins being none too pleased at Morris blabbing. It wouldn’t be too surprising if it was true. If I recall correctly George, Watkins got in trouble a few times and was demoted to a lower pay grade for various things like having sex on duty…they had to find some way of keeping warm..tea…sex…take your pick. As an Englishman I’d go for the tea option of course.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Thanks for that information. I tend to try and view the situation from the potential organ thief’s perspective so I can’t avoid the question: “why would they have taken organs before the post mortem had taken place?” My apologies for re-stating the obvious George but post PM = abdomen already opened, no risk of interruptions by doctors or police officers, no possibility of interference with the body being noticed and the ripper victims were certainly more high profile and so subject to greater attention than the average corpse.
Your question is valid, and I don't have an answer that would refute your contention. However, Baxter was asking questions relating to the loss of organs between the crime scene and the autopsy, so I will have to content myself with that period.

That said, we can’t avoid that doubt has been voiced about the time required and by people who are undoubtedly experts on the subject. I think it’s worth pointing out though the potential difference between the estimations of Brown and Sequeira and the actual time that the killer could have had available to him. Phillips estimation in regard to Chapman is further ‘out’ of course (though I could say that Phillips had form for being wrong but I won’t go there) So I tend to come down strongly on the ‘killer must have had sufficient time’ side.
If we are to accept the modern opinions in the case of ToDs, the same may need to be applied to the acceptance of modern opinion on the times required to achieve the injuries visited upon Eddowes. According to Prosector, Sequeira was newly qualified at the lowest achievement level and may not have had any surgical experience worth mentioning. I accept your opinion, but with the note that I respectfully disagree, preferring to accept the modern experts opinion of the unlikelihood of the timings.

The quote is an interesting one and I can’t help imagining Watkins being none too pleased at Morris blabbing. It wouldn’t be too surprising if it was true. If I recall correctly George, Watkins got in trouble a few times and was demoted to a lower pay grade for various things like having sex on duty…they had to find some way of keeping warm..tea…sex…take your pick. As an Englishman I’d go for the tea option of course.

As an Australian of Celtic origin, my preference would be a good single malt, or a drop of the Irish.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

As an Australian of Celtic origin, my preference would be a good single malt, or a drop of the Irish.

Cheers, George

Couldn’t agree more George. It was my birthday on Saturday so I have a bottle of Laphroaig and a bottle of Talisker for purely medicinal purposes of course. I think they were bought so I could drown my sorrows at England’s recent 50 over performances. Congratulations to Oz by the way.

[GBinOz]

Couldn’t agree more George. It was my birthday on Saturday so I have a bottle of Laphroaig and a bottle of Talisker for purely medicinal purposes of course. I think they were bought so I could drown my sorrows at England’s recent 50 over performances. Congratulations to Oz by the way.

Belated congratulations for your birthday, 39 again? Laphroaig is one of my favourites. Commiserations on England's surprising performance, but I think Australia was lucky to have snatched the title after their dismal start. Glen Maxwell's innings seemed to have boosted their morale, but the T20 team crashed and burned to a 4-1 loss to India. Every dog has it's day.

Cheers, George