Did The Killer Remove Organs?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Thanks for the name correction too. It’s strange but I can’t recall being involved in any discussion threads with him. He last visited in 2021.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/catherine-eddowes/795569-organ-removal-warning-graphic-photos?p=796074#post796074

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police.

Mr. George Baxter Phillips: Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

It appears that leaving a Constable on guard may not always ensure an unbroken chain of custody of the body. Nichols body was also left unattended outside the mortuary while Mann went to find the keys.

Cheers, George

Thanks George,

For some reason I was of the impression that that info wasn’t in a report of the trial so I didn’t look there. You’d have thought that it would have been imprinted on my brain with the amount of Chapman-related discussion recently.

[GBinOz]

I
We also have information that a Constable was put on guard at Golden Lane mortuary when Eddowes body was there (I can’t locate his collar number though it was mentioned somewhere)

Hi Herlock,

Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police.

Mr. George Baxter Phillips: Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

It appears that leaving a Constable on guard may not always ensure an unbroken chain of custody of the body. Nichols body was also left unattended outside the mortuary while Mann went to find the keys.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Morning Advertiser 5 Oct:
How long would the whole thing take to do?-It could be done in five minutes. I may say that a man who is accustomed to removing the womb was asked to take one out, and it took him three minutes.

The time for the expert was to extract the womb only. As you point out, it is a shame that we don't have more detail, such as was the experiment conducted using an autopsy bench with good lighting or crouching over a body on the ground in the dark. One could assume that the experiment was conducted on a cadaver, so there would be no fresh blood flow. If in his haste he damaged the bladder, as Trevor suggested, then the comparison becomes questionable I should think.

By the way, the name of the former member was Prosector - meaning "a person who makes dissections for anatomic demonstrations". He was a surgeon and a teacher.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

Thanks for the quote. Yes it’s certainly questionable if he didn’t include the removal of the kidney too which I find really strange. Why only the womb? Even the best that an experiment like that could have achieved would have had to have included the kidney. It’s a pity that we don’t have more info on this experiment. As ever we’re reliant on the Press.

Thanks for the name correction too. It’s strange but I can’t recall being involved in any discussion threads with him. He last visited in 2021.

[GBinOz]

That opinions are divided. This is the point that I made when you made the positive statement that he couldn’t have had sufficient time Trevor. Drs. Brown, Sequeira and Phillips (on Chapman) were all giving their own estimations and all differed. Modern day experts apparently disagree too (Prosecutor and Nick Warren)

Dr. Brown however should be commended for at least trying to get a more accurate estimation but we can’t know how accurately the conditions were recreated in terms of lighting for example. Maybe the expert didn’t carry out his task in poor lighting but they arrived at a time of 3½ minutes and we know that the killer could easily have had 8 or 9 minutes in Mitre Square.And, of course, as we don’t know who the killer was we don’t know his level of anatomical knowledge or skill as these points are also disputed.

Hi Herlock,

Morning Advertiser 5 Oct:
How long would the whole thing take to do?-It could be done in five minutes. I may say that a man who is accustomed to removing the womb was asked to take one out, and it took him three minutes.

The time for the expert was to extract the womb only. As you point out, it is a shame that we don't have more detail, such as was the experiment conducted using an autopsy bench with good lighting or crouching over a body on the ground in the dark. One could assume that the experiment was conducted on a cadaver, so there would be no fresh blood flow. If in his haste he damaged the bladder, as Trevor suggested, then the comparison becomes questionable I should think. On the other hand, if the uterus and kidney were removed at the mortuary, it indicates how little time would be required to achieve the purpose.

By the way, the name of the former member was Prosector - meaning "a person who makes dissections for anatomic demonstrations". He was a surgeon and a teacher.

Cheers, George

[Fiver]

We also need to look at testimony from the Eddowes Inquest.

Mr. Crawford: I understand that you found certain portions of the body removed? - Yes. The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found.
[Coroner] Have you any opinion as to what position the woman was in when the wounds were inflicted? - In my opinion the woman must have been lying down. The way in which the kidney was cut out showed that it was done by somebody who knew what he was about.
[Coroner] Does the nature of the wounds lead you to any conclusion as to the instrument that was used? - It must have been a sharp-pointed knife, and I should say at least 6 in. long.
[Coroner] Would you consider that the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill? - He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.
[Coroner] Would the parts removed be of any use for professional purposes? - None whatever.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It seems that it was generally accepted at the time that it was the murderer who had excised Chapman's uterus and Eddowes' uterus and kidney.

After Kelly's uterus and kidneys were excised in circumstances in which no-one but the murderer could have done it, how could that have left any room for doubt?

[Herlock Sholmes]

In cases where organs were stolen they would have occurred after the post mortem so we have to ask why, in the case of the ripper murders, would they have occurred before the post mortem? What need was there to have done this before the PM had taken place? Why the hurry? The case was about as high profile as it gets so anyone wanting to steal organs would have been aware of doctors and police showing up for various reasons at random times including to bring people in to ID the body. Why the unnecessary risk when they could easily have waited until after the PM had been completed in the late afternoon/evening when all was quiet? After dark being the ideal time I’d have thought.

We would also have to ask about another unnecessary risk. Anyone working at the mortuary would have been aware that Doctors had been examining the corpse that morning but wouldn’t have known about any of the doctor’s findings (clearly someone like Mann, as an example, wouldn’t have been involved or consulted in any examination) so how could they have known whether the doctors had discovered that there were no organs missing? Would they really have risked the closing off this avenue of profit by having their actions revealed when a doctor at the PM noticed an organ missing that was there a few hours ago?

We also have information that a Constable was put on guard at Golden Lane mortuary when Eddowes body was there (I can’t locate his collar number though it was mentioned somewhere)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

I have to express more than a little surprise Trevor. In many discussions on this case Dr. Biggs is your ‘go to’ medical man and yet when we find him agreeing with Dr. Brown’s estimation (and disagreeing with your position) he appears to become surplus to requirements. Perhaps another valid question might be:

When is Dr. Biggs opinion worth listening to and when isn’t it?

A final point to make of course is that the killer had longer than 5 minutes available to him anyway. He could have had 8 or 9 minutes.

Trevor’s response:

And the killer could have had no time at all other than to murder and mutilate given we don't know what time the couple left to go into the square. You are forgetting the testimony of Dr Phillips who stated that with regards to Chapmans murder he could not have done all that was done to her in under 15 mins and that was in relation to a uterus only add a kidney to that with Eddowes

As I have previously stated the doctors both past and present all gave their opinions whether they could have carried out those removals in the same crime scene situation is unchartered territory the same goes for Dr Browns expert so in reality opinions are clearly divided

That opinions are divided. This is the point that I made when you made the positive statement that he couldn’t have had sufficient time Trevor. Drs. Brown, Sequeira and Phillips (on Chapman) were all giving their own estimations and all differed. Modern day experts apparently disagree too (Prosecutor and Nick Warren)

Dr. Brown however should be commended for at least trying to get a more accurate estimation but we can’t know how accurately the conditions were recreated in terms of lighting for example. Maybe the expert didn’t carry out his task in poor lighting but they arrived at a time of 3½ minutes and we know that the killer could easily have had 8 or 9 minutes in Mitre Square.And, of course, as we don’t know who the killer was we don’t know his level of anatomical knowledge or skill as these points are also disputed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve started this thread because the discussion was moving another thread off-topic.