JTR - Cunning, Careful, or Lucky?

[Barnaby]

G'day Barnaby



No it's just his life at stake!

True, but wild animals make life or death decisions on a daily basis and I don't believe we have to attribute enormous cognitive abilities to them.

I think we need to clarify exactly what cognitive-behavioral skills we are attributing to him. For example, I suspect he had a general knowledge of the streets and let the victims take him to a secluded area. While en route and once there, he probably did a quick glance about to make sure it was an opportune moment and then he struck. If he sensed someone was coming during or shortly after the mutilations he hid or fled. If that is being cunning or clever then so be it.

But I'm not the sort to believe that he was out nights timing the beats of the police, devising ingenious escape routes, cover stories, disguises, pick-up lines, honing his knife skills, and/or manipulating the press.

[elleryqueen74]

But I'm not the sort to believe that he was out nights timing the beats of the police, devising ingenious escape routes, cover stories, disguises, pick-up lines, honing his knife skills, and/or manipulating the press.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he had done any of the things you suggested above. If he was local or had been a local he probably would of known the streets, allys, etc well. Again the fact that what we know is that he got away without being heard or seen with what he was carrying with him and in the condition he would of been after the murders suggest that he knew how to get away quickly and quietly.

He wouldn't need to time the beats of the police at all, If he made small talk or whatever with the girls until after he saw the police on the beat pass them then he knew roughly how much time he had before that policeman would be in the area again. Again had he been a local at the time or some other time he would probably already have a fair idea of the beats of the police and how long they take, he wouldn't need to time them. He obviously didn't need to hone his knife skills as his skill or knowledge was sufficient to do what he wanted to do.

So cunning might not be the right word, but he definitely was careful as to not draw a lot of attention to himself before, during and after the murders.

[GUT]

G'day Barnaby

True, but wild animals make life or death decisions on a daily basis and I don't believe we have to attribute enormous cognitive abilities to them.

A big difference though between cognitive ability and cunning.

[Wickerman]

Well it can can assume he had a disturbed mind and that he didn't know what he was going to next. But the facts show us he knew quite enough to go out with a large bladed knife on him and keep it hidden until the moment he killed, to find a victim with out been seen very often and to keep his face and identity well obscured so he could not be positively identified or so that no one was able to give police a detailed description of him, to kill and mutilate and removed organs quickly and silently each time, to avoid drawing attention to himself upon his getaway, I mean there are no reports anywhere of a man running away from the scenes is there? So he was able to get away each time quickly and silently, not to mention with the murder weapon and body parts in hand. It doesn't really indicate that he had no idea of what he was going to do. He seemed to know exactly what he was doing how he was going to do it and how he was going to slip into the night. Nothing about the killings seems disorganised to me, in fact the exact opposite.

This is one interpretation certainly, and I find I must agree with the points you raise, though I know others do hold a different interpretation.

I'm inclined to think this killer was not a frenzied maniac, mentally disturbed yes, but in a controlled way much like the Hannibal Lecter character.
If you recall, Dr Phillips offered a similar opinion concerning the mutilations after the Chapman murder, where he observed:

"...There were indications of anatomical knowledge, which were only less indicated in consequence of haste."

The killer would be unlikely to display anatomical knowledge if he were a crazy, uncontrolled maniac.

With Mary Kelly, the head was turned to face the door, or windows, to stare at the first person who entered the room.
The face did appear to be slashed at random, yet Dr Bond was able to describe the mutilations to the body which could be seen to be methodical.

None of the organs were cast around the room, in fact even the most meaningless portions of muscle and flesh had been 'placed' on the table.
- Uterus & kidneys with one breast 'placed' under the head.
- The other breast by the right foot.
- The liver between the feet.
- The intestines by the right side.
- The spleen by the left side.

Even though the throat was cut across more than once, as Dr Bond observed "...it is impossible to say in what direction the fatal cut was made..."., this does not imply frenzy but is consistent with the previous killings.

- Both breasts removed by more or less circular incisions.
- The skin and tissue of the abdomen from costal arch to the pubes removed in three large flaps.
- The Pericardium was open below & the heart absent.

There is certainly evidence that while occupied by the mutilation of the Torso his temperament was controlled, but there is also evidence of unnecessary cuts to the face, arms & lower limbs. Perhaps suggesting a change of temperament at some point?

P.S.
Incidentally, there was one witness (John Thimbleby) who claimed to see a man running(?) from the murder scene in Hanbury Street about 6:00 am.

"..He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked. He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old".

[Barnaby]

Hi ElleryQueen,

OK, I think my position is a lot closer to yours than what I originally thought. I was objecting to the view of JTR as some sort of criminal mastermind but that is obviously not what you are proposing!

[GUT]

G'day EQ

So cunning might not be the right word, but he definitely was careful as to not draw a lot of attention to himself before, during and after the murders.

Personally I think cunning is exactly the right word as in "Cunning like a Rat".

[RockySullivan]

P.S.
Incidentally, there was one witness (John Thimbleby) who claimed to see a man running(?) from the murder scene in Hanbury Street about 6:00 am.

"..He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked. He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old".

I just cant for the life of me imagine the ripper with a mustache despite the witness reports. i think he was young and his fresh faced appearance was disarming to the victims. This is a very fascinating report Wickerman. What would cause someone to not bend their knees when they are walking fast? A large knife hidden down ones pant leg?

[elleryqueen74]

I just cant for the life of me imagine the ripper with a mustache despite the witness reports. i think he was young and his fresh faced appearance was disarming to the victims. This is a very fascinating report Wickerman. What would cause someone to not bend their knees when they are walking fast? A large knife hidden down ones pant leg?

I don't know if he would of hidden the knife down his pant leg, I guess it's possible but the knife would be surgically sharp and could do some damage very easily if it is just flying about in this pant leg. I guess it is possible however unlikely.

[RockySullivan]

I don't know if he would of hidden the knife down his pant leg, I guess it's possible but the knife would be surgically sharp and could do some damage very easily if it is just flying about in this pant leg. I guess it is possible however unlikely.

It is unlikely I was thinking he could have had a sheath in his pant leg. If not that what else would account for that type of stiff legged gait?

[elleryqueen74]

It is unlikely I was thinking he could have had a sheath in his pant leg. If not that what else would account for that type of stiff legged gait?

Well this is assuming the man seen "running" away from the scene without bending his knees is actually our Jacky. I doubt that though, you can't really get to far too quickly trying to walk or run without bending your knees.

[RockySullivan]

Well this is assuming the man seen "running" away from the scene without bending his knees is actually our Jacky. I doubt that though, you can't really get to far too quickly trying to walk or run without bending your knees.

I'm not saying he's the ripper just wondering what cause the peculiar gait?

[Wickerman]

I just cant for the life of me imagine the ripper with a mustache despite the witness reports. i think he was young and his fresh faced appearance was disarming to the victims. This is a very fascinating report Wickerman. What would cause someone to not bend their knees when they are walking fast? A large knife hidden down ones pant leg?

Naturally, we cannot claim he was the killer. I was just responding to the point being made that no-one was seen running away from any of the murder scenes.

Interestingly, and possibly coincidentally, another suspicious man seen outside the Britannia on the night of the murder of Mary Kelly, who also had a peculiar gait.

The man is described by Mrs. Kennedy as having on a pair of dark mixture trousers and a long dark overcoat. He wore a low crowned brown hat and carried a shiny black bag in his hand. Further, it was stated that he was a man of medium stature, with dark moustache, and that he had an extremely awkward gait, which could at once be recognised.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

I can only take some of my life into account as an example, I grew up in s***holes and had to do things to get by, I take no pride in the things I did but am proud to be a survivor of those times I know slums and I know desperation and the effect it has on you and if your smart you get through it, anyhow! firstly he was smart ,the smart ones dont get caught, he new his hunting grounds and he knew how to dress to make no sound and be able to hide himself but not look odd he knew how to walk yer sounds odd but there is a way to get about in a quiet and shadowy fashion without looking out of place and he loved what he did which adds something there is an energy to that kind of life it makes you sharp cunning and fast in short it gives you an edge as they say you make your own luck and by being so and well prepared he could make use of the opportunitys that came his way.

[Barnaby]

Among serial killers, I would love to see a correlational analysis of IQ and number of victims before being apprehended. Of course, missing would be the ones that were never apprehended. But if a positive relationship between these two variables doesn't exist among the ones who were apprehended, there wouldn't be much support to posit that the ones who get away with it are more intelligent.

But maybe there is an association. We need data.

Some is better than none!

http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Serial%20Killer%20Information%20Center/Serial%20Killer%20IQ.htm

[GUT]

G'day Barnaby


Thanks for that link, interesting.


Only Theodore seems to slant the figures to a huge degree.

Pity they don't tell us how many killers in each category ie if there were only two bombers in the numbers the second was 125 or thereabouts.

I was really interested to see that only those killing for anger or enjoyment as motive were 100.

200+ subjects isn't a bad sample.