Risky kill-sites - how and why?

[New Waterloo]

Hello Paul. I have been more active on the site lately after re-joining as New Waterloo, previously Waterloo. I think you have a good point about the locations. Especially the recent thread The Stride Murder. Well worth a read start to finish. Excellent posts by the experienced researchers.

You make a point about Police beats. There was a method of patrolling then which was actually used up until fairly recently called static or fixed points (something like that) Anyway what it involved would be police officers standing at say a particular junction of say two streets. The Constable would have a view down each street. It is important for him not to move. By using officers positioned at strategic corners and location anyone moving through the area could be observed. Yes people could move through alley ways but at some point in time a person has to cross a main road or open space. These fixed points are actually described by Charles Dickens in I believe it was called Dickens London Dictionary (It is early in morning so I am struggling a bit). I think he may have given locations of where officers were.

These fixed point officers were stood down at I think about 1 am. As JTR operated later during the early hours they would not have been such a hindrance to his movements. I am not suggesting that's why he worked at night but an understanding of police methods would have been useful. To be honest because of the British Community based policing system (policing by consent) with the public and police much more integrated than some countries it wouldn't take a lot to find out police methods. Yes there were observations by plain clothes detectives etc. But I think uniformed policing was fairly understood. They even used to 'knock' people up for work as part of their duties and would have drunk in local pubs etc.

I remain intrigued by the location question. I am sure that it will have been covered before, maybe its more than just finding a dark spot. Worth some more thinking

NW

[Paul Sutton]

Hello Paul. I have been more active on the site lately after re-joining as New Waterloo, previously Waterloo. I think you have a good point about the locations. Especially the recent thread The Stride Murder. Well worth a read start to finish. Excellent posts by the experienced researchers.

You make a point about Police beats. There was a method of patrolling then which was actually used up until fairly recently called static or fixed points (something like that) Anyway what it involved would be police officers standing at say a particular junction of say two streets. The Constable would have a view down each street. It is important for him not to move. By using officers positioned at strategic corners and location anyone moving through the area could be observed. Yes people could move through alley ways but at some point in time a person has to cross a main road or open space. These fixed points are actually described by Charles Dickens in I believe it was called Dickens London Dictionary (It is early in morning so I am struggling a bit). I think he may have given locations of where officers were.

These fixed point officers were stood down at I think about 1 am. As JTR operated later during the early hours they would not have been such a hindrance to his movements. I am not suggesting that's why he worked at night but an understanding of police methods would have been useful. To be honest because of the British Community based policing system (policing by consent) with the public and police much more integrated than some countries it wouldn't take a lot to find out police methods. Yes there were observations by plain clothes detectives etc. But I think uniformed policing was fairly understood. They even used to 'knock' people up for work as part of their duties and would have drunk in local pubs etc.

I remain intrigued by the location question. I am sure that it will have been covered before, maybe its more than just finding a dark spot. Worth some more thinking

NW

Thanks, I find the details very interesting - JtR clearly knew how 'beat policing' worked. Not difficult for him to grasp, just from observation. I think the location question gets (or has been) too obscured by ley-lines and pattern forming. Not enough on how the very risky sites weren't so much for him - after all, he was never even spotted at work. I think it's 'more than just finding a dark spot', as you eloquently put it!

What about the mostly dismissed idea of a look-out accomplice? The most logical inference from the Stride confusion is that he had one.

[Enigma]

What about the mostly dismissed idea of a look-out accomplice? The most logical inference from the Stride confusion is that he had one.

There is a possibility there was an accomplice in Stride's case. Assuming that is, that she was murdered by JtR . However, the witnesses' statements in the Chapman and Eddowes murders would suggest the killer acted alone. That is, the victims were allegedly seen talking to only one man shortly beforehand.

[Paul Sutton]

There is a possibility there was an accomplice in Stride's case. Assuming that is, that she was murdered by JtR . However, the witnesses' statements in the Chapman and Eddowes murders would suggest the killer acted alone. That is, the victims were allegedly seen talking to only one man shortly beforehand.

Thanks.

But even if JtR had an accomplice - acting as look-out - the two of them wouldn't have approached the victim beforehand. I don't think it's likely he had one, but it's a possible explanation for how he could be so reckless with locations. Of course, the massive problem is how he could have got some berk to do this, without them giving him away.

[Enigma]

Thanks.

But even if JtR had an accomplice - acting as look-out - the two of them wouldn't have approached the victim beforehand. I don't think it's likely he had one, but it's a possible explanation for how he could be so reckless with locations. Of course, the massive problem is how he could have got some berk to do this, without them giving him away.

I don't think there was an accomplice either. As you rightly say, there was too great a risk of being betrayed, even inadvertently. Besides, how do you go about finding someone prepared to assist?

[GBinOz]

I suspect that if there was a likelihood of discovery his inclination was to flee. The lack of mutilations in the Stride murder indicates this.

Hi Enigma,

I agree, and this is one of the reasons that I slightly favour an earlier ToD at Hanbury St. Would he have persevered in daylight with a witness only feet away, twice?

Welcome to the madhouse Paul.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi Paul,

With your interest in the possibility of an accomplice, you may care to have a look at this:

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-cats-cradle.html

I was surprised when you mentioned in another thread that you hadn't heard of Deeming. I would suggest you search "Frederick Deeming" on YouTube. It was for some time thought that Deeming was in South Africa at the time of the murders, but the latest research places him as likely to have been in England.

You are one of the few people, other than myself, that has Thompson as a person worthy of further consideration.

Cheers, George

[Paul Sutton]

Hi Paul,

With your interest in the possibility of an accomplice, you may care to have a look at this:

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-cats-cradle.html

I was surprised when you mentioned in another thread that you hadn't heard of Deeming. I would suggest you search "Frederick Deeming" on YouTube. It was for some time thought that Deeming was in South Africa at the time of the murders, but the latest research places him as likely to have been in England.

You are one of the few people, other than myself, that has Thompson as a person worthy of further consideration.

Cheers, George

Hi George and thanks for that!

Just read up on Deeming. He does seem to be the domestic murderer type, unlike Bury. I can't work out if he was British or from South Africa/Australia.

I think Thompson is of interest - the dates in particular, of when he was effectively shut-away in monastic retreats. Also how he lived for years on the streets - an incredible story, in itself. No evidence, of course, but then there's none really for Lechmere!

[GBinOz]

Hi George and thanks for that!

Just read up on Deeming. He does seem to be the domestic murderer type, unlike Bury. I can't work out if he was British or from South Africa/Australia.

I think Thompson is of interest - the dates in particular, of when he was effectively shut-away in monastic retreats. Also how he lived for years on the streets - an incredible story, in itself. No evidence, of course, but then there's none really for Lechmere!

Hi Paul,

Deeming was British, but was arrested and hanged in Australia.

Cheers, George

[Paul Sutton]

Hi Paul,

Deeming was British, but was arrested and hanged in Australia.

Cheers, George

Thanks.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I agree, and this is one of the reasons that I slightly favour an earlier ToD at Hanbury St. Would he have persevered in daylight with a witness only feet away, twice?

Would he have failed to notice the water with which he could clean his hands in daylight, knowing that on leaving the building bloodstains might be noticed on him?

[New Waterloo]

If we are to suggest that the person we know as JTR killed Stride the this surely must have been his most daring of murders. People along with him could have heard the sounds of music and singing from inside the club and although the street has been described as quiet I think we all agree there were some comings and goings in the period up to her murder. If it was JTR then he must have realized that the chance of a significant mutilation and removing of organs was slim and the chance of being detected whilst kneeling at her body very high indeed. JTR did not have magic powers. Why Dutfields yard??

NW

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If we are to suggest that the person we know as JTR killed Stride the this surely must have been his most daring of murders. People along with him could have heard the sounds of music and singing from inside the club and although the street has been described as quiet I think we all agree there were some comings and goings in the period up to her murder. If it was JTR then he must have realized that the chance of a significant mutilation and removing of organs was slim and the chance of being detected whilst kneeling at her body very high indeed. JTR did not have magic powers. Why Dutfields yard??

NW

I suggest the answer is that that is where Stride suggested they go together, after encountering him in Berner Street.

I suggest that Nichols encountered the murderer in Whitechapel Rd and suggested that they go to Buck's Row, that Chapman met the murderer in Hanbury Street and suggested they go into the backyard of #29, and that Eddowes met the murderer in Duke Street and suggested they go to Mitre Square.

[Paul Sutton]

If we are to suggest that the person we know as JTR killed Stride the this surely must have been his most daring of murders. People along with him could have heard the sounds of music and singing from inside the club and although the street has been described as quiet I think we all agree there were some comings and goings in the period up to her murder. If it was JTR then he must have realized that the chance of a significant mutilation and removing of organs was slim and the chance of being detected whilst kneeling at her body very high indeed. JTR did not have magic powers. Why Dutfields yard??

NW

I think Stride was JtR, and Dutfield's Yard (and all the sites) had some significance, which we don't realise. Thompson's backers have linked all the sites to him, in some way, but I can't recall what this one was - will look in the book. My theory is that for every site, he had some extra security we don't know of, this included.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Enigma,

I agree, and this is one of the reasons that I slightly favour an earlier ToD at Hanbury St. Would he have persevered in daylight with a witness only feet away, twice?

Welcome to the madhouse Paul.

Cheers, George

More importantly, Jack's other known murders were committed when it was dark or he was within four walls. Regardless of what we think is possible 150 years later, which is mere theorising, the evidence of Jack's actions suggests he was very much someone who killed when it was dark or when he had the security of being off the street.

Which is understandable because that was protection from being clearly identified.