Did JTR ever change his M.O. intentionally?

[lynn cates]

correction

Hello Frank. Thanks.

Doubtless true of his mistaken theory about uteri sales. But, as you recall, the medical community were quick to correct his faux pas. Wonder why all (even Phillips) were silent about this one--if it were just his imagination?

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Silent in what way? Much of the questions and answers relevant to the medicos in the Eddowes inquest were with Baxter's theory in mind. Phillips, after his Sept. 26 Press Association interview in the wake of the end of the Chapman inquest, wasn't going to venture any public opnion about evidence in these murders.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks. Are you suggesting that Baxter ignored Bagster and dreamed up two cuts?

The forensic evidence seems clear.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

I'll grant you this, it is quite possible that the coroner could make reference to something in his summing up which was not captured by any court recorder or journalist.

Also, we may not accurately understand the context of the evidence as it was presented by just reading court coverage.

That said, it is also possible that Baxter was assuming the two cuts on the side of the spine indicated two cuts to the throat, rather than where the tail end of one continuous wound overlapped the starting point.

[lynn cates]

silence of the . . .

Hello Cris. Thanks.

Silent about Baxter declaring that Kate could be the work of an imitator. The medical community lambasted him for his organ extraction theory. If he were misinterpreting Phillips and/or Brown, why not speak up?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

misconstrued

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I, of all people, am DELIGHTED to talk about misconstruals. So, if you please, what what misconstrued as what?

Regarding the "wrap around" wound, surely you don't buy that? Phillips referred to two parallel cuts and Baxter said her throat was cut twice. Seems simple.

Cheers.
LC

[Mr Lucky]

The medical evidence had been give under oath by the doctors who performed the relevant post-mortems, these are professional men and they would take care that this evidence was correct. The jury (and incidentally some of the witness, some police and in the case of Nichols some of the press) have all seen the body in the mortuary, if there were any discrepancies between what they saw and the evidence give by the doctors , they (and only the jury - not the police, not the coroner, nor any one else) could request another doctor to perform another examination.

It is a patent fact that this didn't happen. The sensible approach would be that the medical testimony can be considered as accurate, certainly, as far as the physical descriptions of the throat/neck wounds for example.

Baxter is a barrister, he has no medical qualifications whatsoever. If Baxter gives a statement that contradicts what Philips/Llewellyn had said earlier under oath it doesn't overwrite it - it means that Baxter was in error - however this is of no consequence, as the coroner is not under oath whilst summing up and had no need for the same kind of attention to detail that the medical men had. His summing up is NOT evidence - which is why he uses it to take the opportunity to announces his organ theft hypothesis.

[Mr Lucky]

Chapman

The two parallel cuts on Chapman are on the left side of the spine (behind/below the left ear). Obviously, this is where the wrap-around wound over-lapped.

"There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine." - Philips

The wound itself;-

"reached right round the neck" - Philips
"carried entirely round " - Philips


Nichols

The two non-parallel incisions on Nichols throat. (only one of which marked the spine)

" There is a gash under the left ear reaching nearly to the centre of the throat, and another cut apparently starting from the right ear. " - Llewellyn

[Wickerman]

And there you have it gentlemen, in a nutshell...



Thankyou Mr Lucky.

On second thoughts, I might add. One wrap-around wound does not mean one sweep of the knife.

[GUT]

G'day Mr Lucky

Chapman

" There is a gash under the left ear reaching nearly to the centre of the throat, and another cut apparently starting from the right ear. " - Llewellyn

Yet people still argue left handed v right handed.

[lynn cates]

two

Hello Jon. Right. It means two cuts, as said.

Cheers.
LC

[Mr Lucky]

How do we go about understanding what was said at an inquest in 1888?

All UK courts that have origins in common-law (like an inquest) rely on evidence given 'viva-voce' or through word of mouth, so how do we interpret what was meant by those giving evidence at the inquest?

Fortunately, the words are used according to 'ordinary use' so we don't have to interpret them in any way at all, we can simply just use their literal meaning.

So when Dr Philips said ;-

"The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other, and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck."

We know that's exactly what he means , not 'two cuts'.

[Mr Lucky]

On second thoughts, I might add. One wrap-around wound does not mean one sweep of the knife.

Hi Wickerman,

Thanks, Yes I agree, I don't think it could be one sweep of the knife, additionally the wound was described as jagged -

"The throat was dissevered deeply. I noticed that the incision of the skin was jagged, and reached right round the neck."

[Mr Lucky]

Hi GUT,

Llewellyn start the rumour about the killer being left-handed when he gave a press interview on Friday 31 August (which is where that quote I used came from) - However this appears to be largely due to the hand print over Nichols mouth being a right handed print, rather than due to the nature of the wounds themselves. Llewellyn had thought that the killer had pushed her head back before inflicting the throat wounds

This was before he performed the PM on Saturday morning, after which at the inquest, he appears not to be so sure, and he said that they might have been caused by a left handed person.

[GUT]

G'day Mr Lucky

So when Dr Philips said ;-

"The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other, and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck."

We know that's exactly what he means , not 'two cuts'.

Are you saying there was only one cut?

The words I've highlighted are all plural.

[lynn cates]

obvious

Hello GUT. Precisely. The answer seems obvious--two cuts, just as with Polly.

Cheers.
LC