Was JtR a necrophile?

[John G]

Yes john I've found this far too coincidentall. I believe there is a connection here but was it pipeman & BSman or was torso simply referencing and mocking the incident with Schwartz?

Hi Rocky,

Yes, I think it could have been a macabre joke. It may also be of significance that the Pinchin Street victim was mutilated in a similar way to JtR's victims. Could this murder have been intended to make amends for a failure to mutilate Stride the previous year?

There are certainly many coincidences; I've just updated my previous post to include the fact that the first part of the Whitehall (Scotland Yard) Torso, an arm, was discovered on the river bank- a couple of hundred yards away from where part of the Rainham body was found the previous year- on the 11th, Septrmber, 1888, just 3 days after Chapman's murder. Moreover, the parcel in which the Torso was wrapped included a newspaper, dated 24th August 1888, i.e exactly a week before Nichols was killed. However, the doctors believed this victim had been killed in early August.

[Batman]

What is interesting is the parts that are not being found. The parts that are, are being dumped/found at different times and locations. Once introducing JtR harvesting of sexual organs, its like pieces of a puzzle coming together to form a body that has a head somewhere.

[jerryd]

What is interesting is the parts that are not being found. The parts that are, are being dumped/found at different times and locations. Once introducing JtR harvesting of sexual organs, its like pieces of a puzzle coming together to form a body that has a head somewhere.

Hi Batman,

I'm assuming you know that one body part was thrown over the wall of Sir Percy Shelley’s estate in Chelsea. He was the son of Mary Shelley.

[RockySullivan]

I guess the fetus in pickle jar could suggest the organs were "prasarved"...what about the chlorine powder? It's possible the killer stopped using this because it was too specific and felt it could be traced back to him. Is it possible to find anywhere that produced this powder in london in 1884? How common was it and what trade was it specific to?

[Batman]

Hi Batman,

I'm assuming you know that one body part was thrown over the wall of Sir Percy Shelley’s estate in Chelsea. He was the son of Mary Shelley.

That's right.

Oh my.

[jerryd]

It hasn't jerry thank you and that's the first I've heard of the respectably dressed man. The last line seems to reiterate what I've been saying. How many could have been intimately acquainted with the vaults? Someone who worked there before construction began?

According to details given by Chief Inspector Swanson in a report dated 19 October 1888, regarding Israel Schwartz's statement.

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

This seems to fit Mr. Miller's description of John Cleary fairly close and also the man seen on Cannon Street jumping the boards near Whitehall was described age 35. The boards, if I remember correctly were 7 or 8 feet high.

[Batman]

possible apron wrapping

John Ryan, a riverside labourer, was standing on the morning of 4 June 1889 when he saw some boys throwing stones at something in the water. One of them hooked the floating object, which appeared to be an apron, onto the mud of the shore and found part of a woman’s body - Trow, M.J

[Errata]

I think errata first brought this to my attention in a thread on this sub forum not sure which one. The fetus in the jar was found in the thames around the same time as Jackson's pregnant torso yet doctors concluded it was not the missing baby. Explain that one? I tried doing some research but turned up Nary a mention at all. Torso may have kept the fetus as trophy or it ended up buried in some vault.

Errata good post. Do you think whitehall torso was left on purpose or intended to be buried? Not sure why it would have clippings if it was going to be buried. But why bury the limbs and leave torso? Again I think this was someone familiar with the vault and not someone who scoped out the place for dumping randomly.

I think there is a very weird game being played.

This whole thing reminds me of the illustration of the Higgs Boson. You invite aliens (who cannot see the color white) to a soccer match. They can't see the ball, they can't see the goalposts, all they can see are the players running around, sliding, occasionally celebrating. They see the crowd cheering and booing, and since they have no idea whats going on, because they can't see the two things that would make this make sense, they have to come up with an extremely complicated theory when if one player gets a certain distance to the isolated player an that player jumps laterally than a point is scored. But if he jumps vertically no point is scored. And the rules they come up with have to be ridiculous because how do you explain a soccer match with no ball and no goals? It's complicated, it's most likely wrong, it makes little sense.Until someone says "What if there is a ball we cannot see?"

There's a ball we cannot see here. This guy is clearly doing what he is doing on purpose, and we know that because it is easy to do otherwise. It's easy not to leave a torso lying out. It's easy to put the heads somewhere they can be found. So he doesn't have to do these things. He wants to. The question is why, and the only answer I have is that I don't have the faintest idea. I don't know what the rules are. Some things are found immediately, others a few days later, somethings months later and other never found. And it's not like all left hands are missing, which would we very weird but significant. As far as I can tell he's decorating. He thinks "You know what this wall could use to brighten things up? A human torso". Or he is directing this at someone or something, and these locations are significant to that person or thing, but to no one else. It's like he's wandering around with a cart tosses pieces off when it amuses him to do so. He is doing if for a reason, it's on purpose, it's not random, it's not accidental (mostly). And I could tell you that if he gets with a certain distance of player and that player jumps laterally then he leaves some piece of human where he is standing, but the truth is, there is a ball we cannot see here.

Unfortunately, unlike the Higgs Boson illustration, knowing that there is an invisible ball doesn't make things make sense. But it does let us know that we don't know the rules to his game, so we don't know what the game is.

[Errata]

I think errata first brought this to my attention in a thread on this sub forum not sure which one. The fetus in the jar was found in the thames around the same time as Jackson's pregnant torso yet doctors concluded it was not the missing baby. Explain that one? I tried doing some research but turned up Nary a mention at all. Torso may have kept the fetus as trophy or it ended up buried in some vault.

For clarification, the fetus was found floating down the Thames in a pickle jar. It was a male, and doctors concluded that the fetus was Elizabeth Jackson's missing fetus. I questioned that. Jackson would have been 7 months along, the size of the fetus in the jar indicates that fetus might be significantly younger. At least a few weeks which is developmentally important. But because there is no description of that fetus other than size and sex, there's no way to know for sure. I have no idea what developmental markers it had. So the cops thought it was hers, I think there is a chance it was not. But because the evidence either way does not exist, safe route is to believe it was hers. There are thousands of ways I could be wrong, and searching for another pregnant woman going missing and trying to insert her into this case would be messy.

[RockySullivan]

For clarification, the fetus was found floating down the Thames in a pickle jar. It was a male, and doctors concluded that the fetus was Elizabeth Jackson's missing fetus. I questioned that. Jackson would have been 7 months along, the size of the fetus in the jar indicates that fetus might be significantly younger. At least a few weeks which is developmentally important. But because there is no description of that fetus other than size and sex, there's no way to know for sure. I have no idea what developmental markers it had. So the cops thought it was hers, I think there is a chance it was not. But because the evidence either way does not exist, safe route is to believe it was hers. There are thousands of ways I could be wrong, and searching for another pregnant woman going missing and trying to insert her into this case would be messy.

Are you sure? I could swear I read the doctors saying it was not her fetus and concluding it unrelated

[RockySullivan]

According to details given by Chief Inspector Swanson in a report dated 19 October 1888, regarding Israel Schwartz's statement.

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

This seems to fit Mr. Miller's description of John Cleary fairly close and also the man seen on Cannon Street jumping the boards near Whitehall was described age 35. The boards, if I remember correctly were 7 or 8 feet high.

While surely pipe smoking was common as can be in 1888 there are several significant references to pipes in the ripper case. clay pipe Alice, pipeman, eddowes pipes & cigarette case, the pipe in Kelly's room which was for some reason smashed and the man who was spotted on Berber stree who claimed his black leather bag was full of empty tobacco boxes. Anymore?

[Errata]

Are you sure? I could swear I read the doctors saying it was not her fetus and concluding it unrelated

No I wasn't sure, so I checked and apparently they were undecided, some yes, some no. In the thread some people felt that was nonsense because a fetus was taken and then lo, a fetus so what other fetus it could be (fair question I gotta say), and I responded to that. So I think I remembered it wrong because my response was sort of a "Yes we have no bananas" so I forgot the argument was not against the doctor's opinions but other posters' opinions of the doctors opinions.

And they likely did assign the fetus to Elizabeth Jackson for burial. I would be surprised if it was written down anywhere, but once Jackson's remains were released I would bet the fetus was released with them just in case he was hers. We don't know of any other mothers missing, or missing a fetus, and he would have been just developed enough to look human. I don't think the wife of a medical examiner would let her husband bury the baby alone, even if he was inclined to do it. Technically it was nothing more than medical waste, and as such would have been incinerated. But Rocco (I did not name the fetus in a jar don't yell at me) had gotten some press and people knew about him and he likely was put in with Jackson. Unless he's decorating an office, but again, he got some press so unlikely.

[John G]

The existence of placenta made it clear that Liz Jackson had been pregnant and the foetus was removed by the killer. However, Dr Kempster was of the opinion that the foetus in the pickle jar did not come from the victim. It should also be noted that infanticide and back street abortion was relatively common in Victorian England, so this probably represents a more likely explanation.

[RockySullivan]

Personally I think the fetus was probably Jackson's and the dr made an error. I also like erratas theory that Jackson was killed for her fetus...to replace the one in the pickle jar.

I believe the key to this mystery lies deep in the whitehall vault. As I've stated I don't think the killer found this location by casing, he's been there before and knew it very well. It can't be a very long list of people who knew the place so well.

[Rosella]

I think so too. Even with a reconnoitre on the Saturday afternoon it's unlikely that anyone approaching the site from the river side (the direction he came from, I believe) it would be virtually impossible for someone to dig in those vaults and leave a parcel unless they knew exactly what they were doing.

I am becoming more and more convinced too that Torso killer had, at the very least, a cart of some description (Pinchin St) and access to a workplace and receptacle where he could dissect the bodies and store the pieces.