Torsoman vs The Ripper

[Debra A]

You are missing my point, Trevor.
Dr Biggs obviously mistakenly assumed that that the Victorian medics description of a 'virgin uterus' was referring to the victim being an actual virgin due to the condition of her womb. They were not. In fact, as shown to you numerous times by different people, the Victorian doctors were refering to her 'virgin uterus' in the context of her not having had a child.
You quoted Dr Biggs as saying "Whilst a uterus looks different once it has carried children" So, the Victorian doctors observations, even by today's standards, were entirely valid and Dr Biggs agrees with them, the uterus of a woman who hasn't had a child generally looks different to a woman who has. Apparently a doctor can tell if a woman had borne a child by changes to the size/shape of her uterus. Therefore there is nothing to be proven about the Victorian doctor's abilities by you continuing to mention the 'virgin uterus.' It's not a valid point, it's a misunderstanding on the part of Dr Biggs because he probably hadn't come across this archaic medical terminology at the time.

Just to clarify I am not suggesting that every torso fished out of the river died as a result of back street medical procedure, but clearly, it is a historical fact that there was a significant number, and I am going to maintain my stance and say that most of the torsos fished out of the Thames during the period of time discussed did die as a result of some form of a back street medical procedure

You are generalising again Trevor. There were the dismembered remains of only three women brought out of the Thames between 1887 and 1889 and again, posters have been making specific counter points as to why those particular cases and the Pinchin Street case go against your theory of 'abortion gone wrong.'

[Trevor Marriott]

You are missing my point, Trevor.
Dr Biggs obviously mistakenly assumed that that the Victorian medics description of a 'virgin uterus' was referring to the victim being an actual virgin due to the condition of her womb. They were not. In fact, as shown to you numerous times by different people, the Victorian doctors were refering to her 'virgin uterus' in the context of her not having had a child.
You quoted Dr Biggs as saying "Whilst a uterus looks different once it has carried children" So, the Victorian doctors observations, even by today's standards, were entirely valid and Dr Biggs agrees with them, the uterus of a woman who hasn't had a child generally looks different to a woman who has. Apparently a doctor can tell if a woman had borne a child by changes to the size/shape of her uterus. Therefore there is nothing to be proven about the Victorian doctor's abilities by you continuing to mention the 'virgin uterus.' It's not a valid point, it's a misunderstanding on the part of Dr Biggs because he probably hadn't come across this archaic medical terminology at the time.



You are generalising again Trevor. There were the dismembered remains of only three women brought out of the Thames between 1887 and 1889 and again, posters have been making specific counter points as to why those particular cases and the Pinchin Street case go against your theory of 'abortion gone wrong.'

It's an archaic term which has now been superseded by years of ongoing research

Let me ask you several questions you just need to answer yes or no

1. Do You accept that there were back street medicos who carried out a number of different illegal practices?
2. Do you accept that some women died as a result of some of these back-street medical procedures?
3. Do you accept that body dealers were operating in and around Whitechapel at the time of these occurrences?
4. Do you accept that Elizabeth Jackson's body and the missing foetus and her death could have been attributable to a back street medical procedure resulting in her death and possibly the death of her unborn child? Because in the grand scheme of things I only need to prove one case to put the other torsos in the "could have been category"

You suggest Dr Biggs a modern-day forensic pathologist is wrong in his interpretation yet you are suggesting that the Victorian doctors were right in their examinations of the torsos despite them having little or no experience in these matters

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[Debra A]

It's an archaic term which has now been superseded by years of ongoing research



You suggest Dr Biggs a modern-day forensic pathologist is wrong in his interpretation yet you are suggesting that the Victorian doctors were right in their examinations of the torsos despite them having little or no experience in these matters

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No. It's an archaic term used by Hebbert that Dr Biggs misinterpreted in Hebbert's writings. That's the simple truth, Trevor. And even though it has been demonstrated to you over and over again several times by many different posters, that Dr Hebbert did not mean the victim was a virgin when he wrote she had the 'uterus of a virgin' you continually bring it in to a discussion to try and discredit the doctors observations. Your quote from Dr Biggs himself actually confirms what Dr Hebbert was saying- that it is possible to distinguish the uterus of a woman who hasn't given birth from one who has. I have not suggested anything else at all so please don't tell lies.

[Trevor Marriott]

No. It's an archaic term used by Hebbert that Dr Biggs misinterpreted in Hebbert's writings. That's the simple truth, Trevor. And even though it has been demonstrated to you over and over again several times by many different posters, that Dr Hebbert did not mean the victim was a virgin when he wrote she had the 'uterus of a virgin' you continually bring it in to a discussion to try and discredit the doctors observations. Your quote from Dr Biggs himself actually confirms what Dr Hebbert was saying- that it is possible to distinguish the uterus of a woman who hasn't given birth from one who has. I have not suggested anything else at all so please don't tell lies.

I think that's just you interpreting the facts to prop up your belief that these women were murdered and that there can be no other explanation

I stand to be corrected but it seems that the initial autopsy was not carried out by Dr Hebbert but by Dr Edward Calloway and Hebbert may have become involved much later, and as was the case with Mary Kelly in his book what he writes is hearsay.

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[Debra A]

I think that's just you interpreting the facts to prop up your belief that these women were murdered and that there can be no other explanation

I stand to be corrected but it seems that the initial autopsy was not carried out by Dr Hebbert but by Dr Edward Calloway and Hebbert may have become involved much later, and as was the case with Mary Kelly in his book what he writes is hearsay.

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Trevor, Dr Biggs and Dr Hebbert both agree that it is possible to determine if a woman has had a child from the size and shape of a uterus. Dr Biggs himself (in your quote from him) tells us that the shape of a uterus after carrying a child changes and Hebbert made an observation that the Rainham victim had not borne a child based on the exact same observations, that her uterus was the size and shape of someone who hadn't. I am not interpreting anything there. I am pointing out that Hebbert and Biggs agree. I cannot decide if you object to Hebbert and Bond's observations themselves or just the conclusions they made from them. You massively cherry pick what Dr Biggs told you. I recall from copies I had of his very brief comments that he was in essence saying that it would be unsafe to assume a link between the cases just based on Hebbert's conclusions that the dismemberment in these four cases was similar and indicated the skill of a hunter or butcher. He does not rule out a link or tell you that these cases were probably all abortion related. In fact his comments are basic common sense and what I see other people saying to you every time you post on this subject.
Dr Biggs says a link cannot be proven or discounted based on Hebbert's observations and conclusions. That's it. And that is where historical context comes in, researchers working hard trying to determine how common it was for failed abortionists to dismember and dump women's remains in the Thames at Battersea/Chelsea (as you give people the impression it was commonplace when it was not.), and/or steal and sell off their organs then dismsmber and dump them. You generalise and take information from the internet, and give no real evidence to support your claims. One thing you fail to mention any time is that one or more of these women, like countless numbers of other women in history, could actually have been the victims of domestic murders.

There is an annoying tendancy by you to assume posters are on one side or another, either for a torso/ripper killer or two series or even a torso series stretching back years! I am only interested in the dismeberment cases that occured 1887 to 1889 between women of a similar age and whose remains were found in similar locations around the Thames. A rare occurence if one reads up on it! We DO NOT and will NEVER know if either Elizabeth Jackson or the Whitehall victim's deaths occured because of abortion related practices, although Dr Bond did conclude that was not the case with Elizabeth Jackson, which should be taken in to account as he was there and examined the remains. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to consider that their deaths occured for other reasons. We know no cause of death was determined.

Dr Bond was requested by the treasury to become involved with the Rainham case in July 1887 after the Divisional Surgeon had initially examined the remains from May 1887. Dr Galloway's report has not survived. Hebbert was the assistant to Dr Bond and was also present with Dr Bond when parts of the Rainham remains were examined by him. The reason we have Dr Hebbert's observations and conclusions on record is because he wrote two lectures on the four cases which were published in 1888 and 1889. His work is the most detailed set of observations we have on the four cases and so is an important primary source. There may be a couple of things amiss due to Bond and Hebbert coming in a few weeks later when a couple of portions of the remains had been buried already (as was often the practice when , off hand I think there is one discrepancy about an arm or leg but don't recall without checking back.) It is up to the individual researcher to weigh up Hebbert's ability to make accurate observations on the protions of the bodies he actually saw but his contemporary observations should certainly not be ignored.

[Trevor Marriott]

Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to consider that their deaths occurred for other reasons. We know no cause of death was determined.

This is what I have been saying for some considerable time now

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[Debra A]

This is what I have been saying for some considerable time now

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Like murder ..

[Fiver]

It is suggested by some researchers that the victims were murdered and then dismembered would a killer go to these lengths? Personally, I doubt that, if the victims were murdered that's a lot of trouble to go to dispose of the body when there are many other ways of disposing of a body without the need to dismember it.

Your post makes no sense - clearly somebody did go to the length of dismembering these bodies. Any method of disposing of body takes a significant amount of time and effort. An advantage to a killer for dismembering their victim is ease of transport - it's a common feature in Trunk Murders.

But I am sure these abortionists were aware of the illegal trade in body parts involving body dealers and the prices being paid for body parts and this is why in my opinion we see evidence of vital organs missing from some of the bodies.

Ah, your mythical trade in single dismembered organs again. There were few, if any resurrection men left by 1887, since the Anatomy Act of 1832 had greatly increased the number of corpses available for anatomical study. There was no anatomical benefit to obtaining single organs and transplants were well beyond period medical technology.

I have mentioned all the heads missing from the torsos, some may say that was to hide their identity but again why would a killer go to that trouble? a more simple explanation is that the heads and other body parts were sold to body dealers.

Feel free to show there was any illegal trade in severed human heads going on. Murderers frequently go to the trouble of trying to hide their victim's identities. Many have attempted far more time consuming methods, such as Haigh's attempts to dissolve bodies in acid.

[Trevor Marriott]

Feel free to show there was any illegal trade in severed human heads going on. Murderers frequently go to the trouble of trying to hide their victim's identities. Many have attempted far more time consuming methods, such as Haigh's attempts to dissolve bodies in acid.

The purpose of medical schools obtaining bodies and body parts was to teach would-be doctors, and I would suggest that a human head would have been an invaluable asset for just that purpose, and I am sure that when medical schools obtained complete bodies the heads were studied as much as the rest of the body.

And back street medicos would also have had to go to a lot of trouble to hide their work and that included those who died either at the time of these procedures or afterwards.

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[jerryd]

The purpose of medical schools obtaining bodies and body parts was to teach would-be doctors, and I would suggest that a human head would have been an invaluable asset for just that purpose, and I am sure that when medical schools obtained complete bodies the heads were studied as much as the rest of the body.

And back street medicos would also have had to go to a lot of trouble to hide their work and that included those who died either at the time of these procedures or afterwards.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor.

We've had this discussion before, but let's try again.

During the Whitehall torso mystery and Pinchin discovery, the medical students were on vacation and the dissecting rooms were closed. We know Elizabeth Jackson did not come from a dissecting room. So, three of the four torso victims '87-'89 were showing up when the dissecting rooms were closed. The authorities discounted the "medical student hoax" claims, due to this fact.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor.

We've had this discussion before, but let's try again.

During the Whitehall torso mystery and Pinchin discovery, the medical students were on vacation and the dissecting rooms were closed. We know Elizabeth Jackson did not come from a dissecting room. So, three of the four torso victims '87-'89 were showing up when the dissecting rooms were closed. The authorities discounted the "medical student hoax" claims, due to this fact.

And I have replied before !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. There is no evidence to show the date the victims died
2. There is no evidence to show when the bodies were dismembered
3. There is no date as to when the body parts were disposed of
4. And more importantly no evidence to show the causes of death

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

It's worth just mentioning again that James Monro referred to the four torso cases, Rainham 1887, Whitehall 1888, Elizabeth Jackson 1889 and Pinchin Street (1889) as 'murders', and 'by the same hand' in his report of 11 September 1889. Granted, he did say that he didn't think there was a connection to the Whitechapel murders.
Doctors Gordon Brown, Philips and Hebbert were all present at the post mortem of the Pinchin Street case and Hebbert wrote the report stating that the indications were that the woman died from haemorrhage and there was no sign of organic disease of the viscera that would have caused death.

[Trevor Marriott]

It's worth just mentioning again that James Monro referred to the four torso cases, Rainham 1887, Whitehall 1888, Elizabeth Jackson 1889 and Pinchin Street (1889) as 'murders', and 'by the same hand' in his report of 11 September 1889. Granted, he did say that he didn't think there was a connection to the Whitechapel murders.
Doctors Gordon Brown, Philips and Hebbert were all present at the post mortem of the Pinchin Street case and Hebbert wrote the report stating that the indications were that the woman died from haemorrhage and there was no sign of organic disease of the viscera that would have caused death.

Debra
You can keep propping up your personal opinions on this till the cows come home but it it is not going to change the facts surrounding these toros, and no matter what those doctors opined back then there is no evidence to show causes of death, so no one can categorically state that they were all murdered not then not now.

I can't conclusively prove my theory no more than you can prove yours I am simply offering an alternative to murder based on my research and the evidence of a modern-day forensic pathologist whose input should not be dismissed outright

A more appropriate terminology to be used is " found dead in suspicious circumstances" which I think covers all the scenarios. Like many things in Ripperolgy, researchers have created mysteries when there are none to be created.

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[FrankO]

The purpose of medical schools obtaining bodies and body parts was to teach would-be doctors, and I would suggest that a human head would have been an invaluable asset for just that purpose, and I am sure that when medical schools obtained complete bodies the heads were studied as much as the rest of the body.

And back street medicos would also have had to go to a lot of trouble to hide their work and that included those who died either at the time of these procedures or afterwards.

I don't know if anybody ever asked you this or what your reply was (I can imagine they did and if so, apologies), but how would you explain that only some but not all body parts and organs were sold (but, instead, were left to be discovered)?

Wouldn't that have been 'money thrown away' for the party not selling them?

[Aethelwulf]

Like many things in Ripperolgy, researchers have created mysteries when there are none to be created.

You mean like:

Juwes = Jurors
Apron = sanitary towel
Missing organs = rogue mortician