Did Jack gross himself out..?

[Ausgirl]

Okay. So my flatmate and I were chatting about murder over a nice cup of tea (as one does) and came around to the question of 'Why JtR stopped'.

I've been watching/reading some interviews with other killers who have elements of the JtR murders among their own crimes, and one thing that stood out is that no matter how horribly depraved their acts were, there seems to be some kind of limit they'll impose. "Oh yes, I killed all those women... but I'd never rape a child". Even if they DID rape children.. there's a sense of not wanting to carry the shame of it. So there's room for a warped kind of conscience in these people.

Following that thought, we talked about JtR and it occurred to us that Mary Kelly's murder was the only one in which JtR had ample time to play out his fantasies and mutilate to his heart's content (as he clearly did) - and then we wondered...

Given that all the other murders followed a basic 'blueprint' in that they were extremely quick affairs conducted in the street, lots of adrenaline, lots of risk, fast deaths, a bit of post mortem dabbling and away - Mary Kelly's murder was a very different affair, being much more private with lots of time, less of a thrill perhaps, more time to explore how far he was willing to go with mutilation.

So the question we ended with was - could Jack have pushed himself too far with MK's murder? Not only breaking pattern with her, but also maybe crossing some sort of (arbitrary) line within himself, and thus ruining the 'thrill of the kill', leading to the abrupt cessation of the murders?

I'm never glued to a theory, just throwing this out there as a thought.

[Nemo]

I think that's valid Ausgirl

If he was a psychotic attacking in a fit of mania, the time available to him at Millers Court may have been enough for the fit of mania to pass and for him to come to some sort of realisation of what he was doing

[Damaso Marte]

Gross himself out, or live out his dream?

[jason_c]

Unlikely. If he wasn't grossed out by all sorts of fecal matter from Eddowes I doubt he was grossed out by anything he did with Kelly. Satiated perhaps; grossed out, no.

[Errata]

So the question we ended with was - could Jack have pushed himself too far with MK's murder? Not only breaking pattern with her, but also maybe crossing some sort of (arbitrary) line within himself, and thus ruining the 'thrill of the kill', leading to the abrupt cessation of the murders?

I'm never glued to a theory, just throwing this out there as a thought.

The short answer is yes. He could have violated his own sensibilities and stopped. It would be extremely unusual, but every rule we come up with for serial killers, there is an exception that blows the idea of an absolute.

But everything we do as humans satisfies some need. From tapping a pencil incessantly in class to killing. And those needs have to be met. Killing, mutilating, cannibalism, whatever satisfies a set of needs in serial killers. Needs that are not otherwise satisfied. And those needs don't just disappear. So for a serial killer to stop killing, he needs to find a way to satisfy those needs in some other way.

A serial killer who stops because he is afraid of getting caught does not stop for long. He may quit for a year, move, start over somewhere else. BTK stopped for more than a decade. He had children, a job as a dogcatcher, his need for control was being satisfied in other ways. But his kids grew up, moved out, and then his needs weren't being met anymore. So he started writing letters again.

If Jack stopped, for whatever reason, he had to have his needs met in some other way. If we knew what his needs were, we could speculate as to where he ended up, but we don't really know. I would imagine though that dominating women would be at the top of the things he needed in some activity that was not killing.

[John Wheat]

I think it's highly unlikely. If Jack stopped then it would be for another reason.

[Ausgirl]

Thank you all for your thoughts - of course, they are all as potentially valid as one another, given that we know so little about this man other than what can be surmised via his acts of murder.

And, of course, this is all only assuming that JtR stopped with Mary Kelly, which is arguable itself.

Errata, I by and large agree with what you've said, but I do question the 'dominating women' part, in that JtR didn't actually dominate anyone much- he managed to get them alone and then killed his victims swiftly and 'dominated' their corpses, which suggests to me somebody who might have had difficulty exerting his will over living women.

[Errata]

Errata, I by and large agree with what you've said, but I do question the 'dominating women' part, in that JtR didn't actually dominate anyone much- he managed to get them alone and then killed his victims swiftly and 'dominated' their corpses, which suggests to me somebody who might have had difficulty exerting his will over living women.

Precisely. That was the need he could not otherwise fulfill. He accomplished it through murder and mutilation. If he was going to stop killing, he would have to find another way to do that. Even if it was as straightforward as becoming an orderly in a women's asylum, he had to find some way to dominate women, some way to assert control over them. Otherwise he would have had to keep killing to fulfill that need.

[Robert]

I don't think he would have grossed himself out until his 144th murder.

[Ginger]

could Jack have pushed himself too far with MK's murder? Not only breaking pattern with her, but also maybe crossing some sort of (arbitrary) line within himself, and thus ruining the 'thrill of the kill', leading to the abrupt cessation of the murders?

That makes a lot of sense to me, really. I've always kind of pictured Jack going home, falling asleep emotionally exhausted, then waking up the next morning with the feeling that none of it had been completely real. He'll read in the paper what the murderer did last night, and join his fellows in their horror, sincerely, to some degree. He recalls what he did, but it seems more or less like a dream to him, and not something that really happened - not something that he could do, however exciting he finds the idea

This time - he indulged himself in every way that he could imagine, then, exhausted, perhaps fell asleep in the room with Kelly, only to wake later, the mania past, and see what he'd done through calm, relatively sane eyes, having his nose rubbed in it, as it were. Would that be enough to teach someone like Jack why some fantasies remain more satisfying when they're not made real?

[pinkmoon]

That makes a lot of sense to me, really. I've always kind of pictured Jack going home, falling asleep emotionally exhausted, then waking up the next morning with the feeling that none of it had been completely real. He'll read in the paper what the murderer did last night, and join his fellows in their horror, sincerely, to some degree. He recalls what he did, but it seems more or less like a dream to him, and not something that really happened - not something that he could do, however exciting he finds the idea

This time - he indulged himself in every way that he could imagine, then, exhausted, perhaps fell asleep in the room with Kelly, only to wake later, the mania past, and see what he'd done through calm, relatively sane eyes, having his nose rubbed in it, as it were. Would that be enough to teach someone like Jack why some fantasies remain more satisfying when they're not made real?

Let's face it I don't know what he could have done with his next victim to beat what he did to Mary Kelly the next victim would have been an anti climax

[Ausgirl]

I don't think he would have grossed himself out until his 144th murder.

Pun-tastic effort, there, Rob.

[Barnaby]

While it certainly is possible he grossed himself out, I find it unlikely that it would affect his subsequent behavior, as any person who watches pornography would attest

[Ausgirl]

Do tell, Barnaby...

It's pretty hard to imagine anyone returning to a life that passed for normal after Mary Kelly, I agree. Not to say he didn't - the idea that maybe he indulged his fantasy a step too far for his own sensibilities and backed off for a while (perhaps forever) is just one concept of why he stopped.

The main reason I've pondered this as far as I have is that Mary Kelly's murder not only ended the 'autumn of terror' but represented a serious break of pattern for JtR. For some compulsive people, breaking the pattern alone could have seriously disrupted whatever was going on his head at the time. Add all the extra minutes - hours - to indulge in what had been to that point a scenario mostly happening in his head (as far as mutilation goes).. it isn't unfeasible at all.

Not to be all Druitt about it, but it's also quite feasible he did kill himself, once he'd pushed the fantasy that far.

As for someone dabbling in guts not being able to gross himself out.. I hear ya. But that wasn't really what I meant - more that he pushed his agenda (which included handling guts) way past what he'd done before and into something that could have sickened even him. Though presently, I am thinking loss of control could also produce that kind of self-revulsion.

[Errata]

Though presently, I am thinking loss of control could also produce that kind of self-revulsion.

One thing you need to take into consideration is the self preservation obsession is capable of. And there is certainly an obsessive quality to these murders. Any number of serial killers go too far. Some because of a total loss of control, some because they have been trying to make do with a lesser fantasy. And some just frankly screw up. I can be either a sign of evolution, or devolution. But if they go past the fantasy, past the obsession, their coping skills are marvelous. Remember they have already done it two or three times. The went from fantasy to action, and then from action to plan.

Take someone with OCD for example (though it is not the same thing, but a convenient parallel). A person with compulsive hand washing will, on a very bad day, scrub the skin off their hands. They clearly go too far. They have lost control. But this event inspires almost no one to seek treatment and stop doing it. The obsession changes to survive. In some unfortunate cases, that becomes the new goal. The goalpost changes, and scrubbing the skin off their hands becomes the new standard of clean. Most others however insert a new obsession as a check. So then instead of washing until they feel clean, which is nebulous, they wash 21 times a day. 21 repetitions means clean. No more, no less. But they almost never stop the behavior.

The analogue between OCD and serial killers, or anyone really, is that people use a variety of behaviors to deal with some kind of distress. And it isn't damsel in distress kind of distress. It's a deep internal pressure, or some barrier, or even numbness that has to be overcome. Some people do this in healthy ways, some people do it in destructive ways. But the key to all of it is rationalization. And thats not a coping mechanism that just deserts someone because it went to far. People rationalize, adjust, and move on unless the distress can be soothed some other way. Obsession and rationalization means that the loss of control is in fact one of the greatest sins, but it also means it is almost immediately dealt with.

He may have grossed himself out, but human behavior being what it is, he likely had some kind of fix in place with the week. Whether that being a new fantasy, or a ritualistic check to make sure that level of horror never happens again. But this is not a man with conscience. And it is likely a man very familiar with self loathing. I imagine his ability to deal with his own mistakes was both swift and well practiced.