Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

Sorry, this is off-topic, but you once wrote that you might be willing to run any forensic questions past your contact, Dr. Michael Biggs. Does that offer still stand?

I was thinking it might be worthwhile to hear Dr. Biggs' thoughts about "agonal breathing."

It has been suggested by certain Lechmere theorist that when Robert Paul felt Polly Nichols' chest and thought he felt slight movement, it could have been agonal breathing by a still very much alive Polly Nichols.

It would be interesting to know if Dr. Biggs thinks this theory is at all probable, considering the extensive nature of the cuts to Poll Nichols' throat and abdomen. Could a person exhibit agonal breathing 30 or 40 seconds after having their throat cut down to the vertebrae, and could that breathing be interpreted as a slight movement of the chest as described by Robert Paul?

If not, is there any forensic explanation for Robert Paul's testimony, other than a witness simply being mistaken?

(Perhaps these questions need to be formulated in more detail, but that's the gist of it. This was something that came up on the 'Charles Cross' thread).

Many thanks.

I have had the following reply from Dr Biggs

This is an interesting question, for which (as usual!) I'll be unlikely to help take you definitively in either direction.

First of all, it is certainly possible for someone who has suffered a mortal wound, including a throat cut down to the vertebrae, to be exhibiting agonal breathing 30-40 seconds later (or even longer).

However, it is also not uncommon for bodies to appear to exhibit breathing (or similar sounds / movements) when examined after death, especially by those unaccustomed to dead bodies. If, for example, you were to move a body even slightly (such as when checking for signs of life) then you could prompt an escape of air from the chest, lolling of the head, etc. which could be entirely post-mortem, but could mimic breathing or a "last gasp".

(It is also possible for the mind to play tricks, especially in a situation of high drama / shock, when there is poor lighting, etc.)

So it could be that there was no actual breathing / movement / noise, and that the observer was simply mistaken due to the ghastly scene presented unexpectedly. Or it could be that the body had been dead for a period of time, but that the slightest movement triggered an escape of air (accompanied by breathing, gurgling or groaning sounds), which was misinterpreted as a genuine sign of life. Or there could have been some genuine respiratory effort / movement of the chest wall (whether conscious or involuntary) a short period of time after the injuries had been inflicted, but before death had actually occurred.

I know that doesn't help you to decide one way or the other, but it's important to stress that both suggested scenarios are possible, and so can't be ruled out on medical / pathological grounds.

I hope that helps?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Lewis C]

I think that does help, because it provides a plausible explanation for why Paul thought that Nichols might have still been breathing, especially since he seems to have only thought that briefly.

[Newbie]

"I have had the following reply from Dr Biggs

This is an interesting question, for which (as usual!) I'll be unlikely to help take you definitively in either direction.

First of all, it is certainly possible for someone who has suffered a mortal wound, including a throat cut down to the vertebrae, to be exhibiting agonal breathing 30-40 seconds later (or even longer).

However, it is also not uncommon for bodies to appear to exhibit breathing ...."

As fetched as I am about the Lechmere theory, 30 - 40 seconds is too short a time period between Lechmere delivering the wound that sent her most rapidly to her death and the agonal breathing Paul thought he detected. Thirty to fourty seconds is about the time in which Paul first sees Lechmere, to when he was kneeling over her body, head leaving over her chest.

Two minutes? ... that is if Lechmere was the killer.

[Newbie]

Lazy me making a quick search on the internet:

Agonal breathing is a distinct and abnormal breathing pattern often seen in the early minutes after sudden cardiac arrest. These gasping, irregular breaths are NOT signs of life. Instead, they are a reflexive response of the brainstem trying to trigger normal breathing, even though the heart has already stopped.

Without oxygen-rich blood circulating, brain damage can begin within 4 to 6 minutes.

• The last reflex: This reflex is often the body's final attempt to breathe and will only persist for a few minutes after the heart has stopped. Once the brainstem itself dies from lack of oxygen, all breathing ceases.

So, in my thoroughly unqualified way, the point in time of the throat slashing, or the cardiac arrest due to the possible strangulation (tracheal, non carotid pressure point I suppose), cut off all blood going to the brain and the beginning of the crisis. After a few minutes (4 - 6?), Polly Nichol's brain stem is no longer functioning to trigger anything ... the subsequent fatal wounds to the belly (Llewylln suggesting them to be the cause of death), having no effect on the process.

If Lechmere was the killer, Paul might be expected to hear the last of the agonal breathing. Whether he heard it or not is the question that really is unanswerable, but it would go on longer than 40 seconds .... because it ceases when the brain stem dies.

[Lewis C]

This may be the most important thing that Dr. Biggs said: "However, it is also not uncommon for bodies to appear to exhibit breathing." It makes the agonal breathing question a red herring. And Paul was far from certain that she was breathing anyway

[Newbie]

This may be the most important thing that Dr. Biggs said: "However, it is also not uncommon for bodies to appear to exhibit breathing." It makes the agonal breathing question a red herring. And Paul was far from certain that she was breathing anyway

If there was no report of possible agonal breathing, then one might say that the heart shut down at least 3 - 4 minutes before hand.

But since you guys are always playing defense, you didn't notice the potential opportunity.